Christopher S. Nudo on Authenticity, Branding, and the New Age of Legal Marketing

Viktoria Altman: Hey guys. Welcome to the Law Firm Accelerator. Today, with us, we have Chris Nudo. Chris is the partner in NTegrity Law. Chris, welcome to the show. So nice to have you here today. Did I get it right? Are you a partner or are you the founder?

Christopher S. Nudo: I’m the founder, I’m a partner, I’m the managing partner. You know, when you’re the owner, you’re a little bit of everything.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah, that’s true. So you have a very unique name, NTegrity Law spelled with an N. What is the message you were trying to send when you created this name?

Christopher S. Nudo: So, years ago, the word integrity came to me because I was trying to figure out what would something say, do the right thing all the time. That was the core value message I wanted to send. The word that came to me was integrity and obviously the integrity spelled with an I and we spelled it here behind me, NT. NTegrity Law, just kind of a play. It really gets down to doing the right thing even when nobody’s watching. Back around 1999, I found my faith in Jesus Christ and that was a pivoting moment for me in my life and the direction I was going in. And as it applied to my practice of law, I wanted to demonstrate all of those Christian principles in some way.

And integrity is where we landed.

Viktoria Altman: That makes a lot of sense. So tell me what you mean when you say do the right thing when nobody’s watching?

Christopher S. Nudo: When you’re doing estate planning, probate work, real estate buying and selling businesses, all these type of transactional things that we work on, you can either do them at absolutely the highest standard, you can do it and just get by. There’s just so many varying details that go into the type of work that we do with the clientele that we have.

That, we’ve decided that every file we touch, every client we serve, we’re gonna do it at whatever that highest level is without compromise. And so, that’s probably the best way to say it, to serve without compromise.

Viktoria Altman: So you’ve been practicing law since the early nineties and your path has led you business succession, estate planning, real estate, not-for-profit law. It sounds like you’ve tried a lot of things. What was the turning point when you said, okay, this is the kind of law I wanna practice.

Christopher S. Nudo: So, when I came outta law school, like every good lawyer, you have no idea what you’re doing. I fell into a practice that was very transactionally orientated. Meaning, we didn’t do any court work. The extent of our court work was probate law. I found myself learning estate planning law, business law, and so on. Well, in 2008 you may recall that was a recessionary period, especially with regard to real estate. And all of my real estate business went away, that was a moment where I decided estate planning is where I could do my absolute best.

Helping people plan for the inevitable that they’re gonna die. And I fell in love with it, and that’s when I really started moving my practice towards estate planning. A very natural progression from estate planning is business succession, because estate planning and business succession are the same thing.

Just one is done at your business level and the other at the personal level. It doesn’t have to beat death, just like estate planning doesn’t have to be ultimately dying is the thing that makes it happen. But, that’s kind of the progression of my practice.

And today, estate planning, probate, business succession is really the core elements that we practice.

Viktoria Altman: Makes a lot of sense. When you talk about estate planning and business succession in one sentence, are you only focused on clients who have businesses and doing their estates, or do you work with other estate planning clients as well?

Christopher S. Nudo: That’s a fantastic question. So, no, we support all clients from the simplest client who has almost nothing to extremely wealthy multimillionaires. We love working with the people who God has given much to, but that much may not be finances. And so we do very simple planning for them. And then the people that come to us where God has given them abundance and wealth, we handle them too. So the whole spectrum.

Viktoria Altman: Okay. Makes a lot of sense. And it sounds like you really put your spirituality into your practice as well. Does that come into play when you make these plans or help people?

Christopher S. Nudo: One of the things that we’re very careful about is not to be preachy. People are not coming to church, they’re going to see their lawyer. But I don’t separate my faith and my values, my practice of law. I don’t separate it from any part of my life. When people come to see me, they know they’re getting a Bible believing Christian male who is going to expound those core beliefs in everything I do. And so if you come to me and you have a marriage issue, and we need to talk about that, while I’m not a psychologist. I’m going to sit and listen and hear how I can somehow help as it relates to the work I’m doing with your possible marriage issues, business partner issues, or any issue that might impact the work we’re doing with you.

Viktoria Altman: Makes a lot of sense. It’s funny, I interview a lot of lawyers on this podcast and the one common thread I found for every successful lawyer is they bring their own true self into the job. Whatever that driving core belief is, it’s different for everyone. For some people, it’s spirituality.

For other people, it’s their lifestyle or the kind of people they serve, et cetera. Whatever that core belief is, if you are bringing that into your work, you’re both happier and your clients are happier too. It’s all about being as genuine as you can be, as true as you can be to yourself.

Christopher S. Nudo: Yes, authenticity.

Viktoria Altman: Great. So that leads us into the next question. When you market your firm, how do you do it from the most authentic point as yourself?

Christopher S. Nudo: So, people love to know someone’s story. And to truly tell your story, you have to be very vulnerable. You can’t be afraid of the mistakes that you’ve made in life. You have to be humble and authentic in what you do.

When it comes to our marketing and branding, we like to really get our story out there of who we are. The type of clients we like to serve. The values that we profess,our faith, like on our website, we lead with integrity. We lead with number of Bible verses and they all go together to tell a story of who we are.

So when it comes to marketing and trying to let people understand our brand. It’s really trying to get people to understand who we are, and if they relate, then they’re probably gonna be attracted to us.

Viktoria Altman: So to take that one step further, what specifically do you do marketing wise that brings your genuine self to the market?

Christopher S. Nudo: So, one of the things is videos. We live in a world of videos and somebody’s watching this one right now. We find that the adage a picture is worth a thousand words. We work very hard to put a lot of video content out into the web. First of all, if you go to our website, you can hear a story from all of our lawyers, with mine being the lead story. You can then go to our video page and we have countless videos. Whether they would be teaching or talking about our story and how we help, we use the internet a lot. Both be on the social side of things with LinkedIn, Facebook, et cetera.

And then, just using Google to spread our message. The other thing we do is we like to bring in small groups of clients into our office, real intimate settings, and teach them the implementation of their estate plan before they die, so that their family members are more prepared when the unfortunate event occurs, where possibly their parents pass away.

Viktoria Altman: Great. So you’re doing a couple of things there really well, from a marketing perspective. YouTube is owned by Google, so one of the main things to do well on Google is using YouTube. And we know now, I don’t know if you’ve noticed it yet, AI has been taken over search, traditional search.

So I just came back from a conference in Poland where we spent six days discussing how to rank well for AI. And this was what some of the smartest SEOs and marketers in the world. What we came away with is in essence, it’s all about your brand. AI is looking to understand who you are from multiple sources.

A really good example of that, my AI overview of me is taking word for word from my Amazon, author page. So that’s a good tip for you. If you ever written a book, make sure you set up that author page.

But it’s also pulling from Justia, FindLaw, YouTube, Twitter, your website, as well as other authoritative properties, such as LinkedIn. By putting your brand out there and being very genuine about who you represent, why you represent them, how you represent them, et cetera, you’re really making it very easy for AI to understand who you are. And if you’re doing that, then AI is going to be more willing to recommend you the next time somebody goes and says, give me an estate planning attorney in your area.

A lot of things you’re doing really well there. It’s all about branding. It’s a lot less about specific keywords, although those still matter. It’s more about media appearances and podcast appearances. One of the reasons why I do this podcast is because you and I are gonna have a nice discussion about estate planning, marketing, and then that’s gonna go on YouTube, my website, and in a press release. So, now Google has a whole lot of places where I can see what you do for a living and what I do for a living, which helps both of us.

Christopher S. Nudo: It’s fantastic.

Viktoria Altman: Okay. You wrote a called Estate Planning Without Fear.

So, tell me about this book. What was the inspiration behind it? And, you give it away for free right now, if I understand correctly.

Christopher S. Nudo: I do. The reason I wrote the book is because not everybody is comfortable with the concept of their own mortality. There’s a lot of people out there that are scared to die. What I do is I plan for the transfer of your assets and the control of your estate when you die. If people are uncomfortable with the concept of their own mortality, then they’re equally as uncomfortable with the concept of planning for it. But planning doesn’t have to be scary, sometimes talking to a lawyer, no matter how much I do my hair and brush my teeth, I can be scary. So, I wrote a book that said, you can do this and it’s not scary, Estate Planning Without Fear. I give it away right now so that people will download it. Hear my voice in it, hear the concepts that are important to them to help their family, and then if they wanna reach out to me and let me help them, I’ve kind of softened the runway to them getting their plan created.

Viktoria Altman: So, it seems like you’re a man who is not afraid of death. Is it because you deal with death so much, or is it because of your spirituality?

Christopher S. Nudo: It’s because of my faith. Absolutely.

Viktoria Altman: That’s lovely. And I think a lot of us, certainly, I am a marketer, right? And so of course I have an estate plan because I understand what happens if I don’t, because we’ve written thousands of articles on this topic. But talking to estate lawyers like yourself, you always feel a little bit braver facing those things, right? Because you guys, come to it with your faith and confidence in the work that you do, and you give the rest of us a little more reassurance of what happens when the unexpected happens.

Christopher S. Nudo: Yeah, I hope so. That’s our goal.

Viktoria Altman: So about the book, you said people listen to your voice. Is it on an audible version or a PDF version?

Christopher S. Nudo: It’s a PDF version and what I mean by listen to my voice is, you know, when you read a book, you hear a voice in your head.

That’s kind of what I meant by hear my voice because of course it’s written in a very conversational way, or at least I tried to write it in that manner. Hopefully, when they read it, they can hear me describe the things that they should do that would be important for their family.

Viktoria Altman: And that’s a great idea. For an estate planning attorney, you guys have to really nurture your leads. It’s about creating a relationship with your potential client even before you have a relationship. And so for an estate planning attorney, having a book is important. Now with the way AI is working, I think having a book for everyone is important, because it’s really explains to AI who you are and what you do.

You have an interesting blog post that compares the state planning to a love language. Where did this idea come from and, why do you frame it this way?

Christopher S. Nudo: I love this connection. A love language in our society is traditionally something that you do that somebody else finds incredibly loving or nurturing or caring. Love languages are often compared in marriages. There’s a whole list of them. I compare estate planning to a love language as well, because when you are planning your estate, the reality is you are gonna be dead when it goes into effect. You are doing this plan for your children, your spouse, your nieces or nephews, whoever you’re planning for. They’re the recipients of the care that you took in taking the time, spending the money to draft an estate plan. So really, an estate plan is a love language.

It’s my way of saying I care about you that I’m gonna prepare everything in my estate the very best way possible so that when I die, your experience in inheriting what I have to leave to you will be the best experience it can be.

Viktoria Altman: That’s a very loving way to serve people and make a living as well. ‘Cause we all need to do both. Okay. Well, let’s take a step back to your marketing. You’re very passionate about your work, clearly. Have you ever done anything that hasn’t worked out as well? And tell me why.

Christopher S. Nudo: Yeah. I tried the celebrity approach, in hindsight, I should have known better, but I tried saying, okay, if I got somebody who people would know, to speak and endorse me, then for sure that would make me successful. And that’s just not true. So the lesson learned there was twofold. One, hiring celebrities is really expensive, and two, people don’t listen to celebrities. And that was a major fail. I love the fact that I did it. It was fun, it was exciting, but it was a terrible return on investment.

I don’t think the celebrity would’ve mattered to be quite honest, because what I learned was brands hire famous people all the time to endorse their brand and somehow they think that because when you’re watching that commercial, that famous person that’s endorsing that product’s gonna make you wanna buy that product. And what we know instinctively, or maybe it’s just me, but I believe that it really doesn’t work. I think authenticity in real people and the ability to get that message across is by far a much better way of marketing than to think you can influence people through somebody famous.

Viktoria Altman: Do you think it didn’t work because it didn’t feel authentic to your brand?

Christopher S. Nudo: I do, because I really loved the message that they gave. But it didn’t land. Because I just feel that people are like, okay, that’s what he said. It sounds good. But there was just a missing element, like a hole in the road kind of thing. I wish I could articulate it better, but I can just tell you that if you’re asking me, something that I wouldn’t do again that I tried. That’s it.

Viktoria Altman: It’s an interesting perspective. You might be the first person who’s ever had that specific marketing takebacks. Is there anything else that you’ve done that you feel wasn’t a great marketing choice for you?

Christopher S. Nudo: That was the pinnacle. If we wanna talk about things I’ve done in marketing where I think the return on investments rather not worth it for my profession in the Chicago market. It’s gonna be Facebook marketing. I did quite a bit of it, at a very professional level, we did all of the AB testing multiple ads. Worked very hard at it and spent a lot of money and for some reason, Facebook just doesn’t convert real well in my marketplace.

Viktoria Altman: So I have quite a bit of experience working with estate lawyers, and Facebook works well if you’re promoting webinars.

So we have top of the funnel people who are ready to buy, and then bottom of the funnel, which is people who are ready to be educated. What I found is that Facebook works well promoting webinars, but Google, there’s a type of campaign that is not intended to be used this way. I had a situation where one of my very good long-term clients was having their Facebook managed by another company, and that Facebook got hacked The client calls me and basically goes, we have a webinar coming. Nobody’s coming. We haven’t been able to advertise us. Help us.

I’m like, okay, first of all, we need to send out an email to your list. So they did that in-house. I said, let me try this Google campaign to do this webinar. I know it’s not intended to be used this way. I said, look, I don’t know if it’s gonna work. She got 80 signups in seven days. I was flabbergasted because nobody else is using that campaign this way so we’ve been running it every month for her but when it comes to things like buy from me or convert on Facebook, you’re gonna get very low results.

The reason why is because those people generally need to nurture and educate them rather than try to get them to convert. But for estate, you can actually do that for a long time. You can nurture and educate people for a very long time. And as long as they end up converting, you’ll still make money if the campaign is set up correctly.

Christopher S. Nudo: You’re absolutely right because with estate planning, people have to be ready to buy. You can’t convince somebody to do an estate plan until they’ve convinced themselves, it’s time to do it.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah, I mean there’s definitely things you can do in terms of talking about pain points and explaining to them the reality of what happens if you die without an estate planning, which is absolutely devastating, But in the end, people have to take action. It’s the same thing in my line of work.

I can speak with somebody and explain to them what they’re missing out on, but in the end, they have to take action.

So, you’ve been through nearly three decades of practicing law. In terms of legal marketing or client communication, what have been the big shifts in the past three decades?

Christopher S. Nudo: I think COVID really made a big shift in the younger generations. So people, 40 and less, I find that they really wanna do everything in the virtual world. When we market to them, they want to meet virtually through Zoom or something. They have no need to sit with me to get to know me. They’ll get to know me, however they do by reading my reviews, watching my videos, any other source they find on me. That’s how they get their comfort and that’s a big shift in the market that took place, five years ago. Ever since websites and Google have taken over, it’s just a matter of staying on the bleeding edge of what’s happening. I am not the kind of person to sit back and wait for somebody to say, okay, this is the thing to do. I’m more the person to do it, and it may not work. It may not be perfect, but at least I’m doing something that somebody else isn’t. I’m a firm believer in you’ll succeed as long as you move your feet. Also, I find in today’s environment, the requirement to be very vulnerable is important. And that goes back to what I said earlier. The web today is a storytelling place. You touched on this with AI. Whether through AI or other means, people can get to know you before they get to know you.

That’s really the shift that I’ve seen in today’s marketing. In the old days, it was just getting your name out there, what you did, and how you can help. It’s not really that anymore between Google reviews and other mechanisms, people want to get to know you before they meet you or schedule an appointment with you.

So that’s really the shift that I’ve seen.

Viktoria Altman: So you’ve touched upon a couple of interesting things. Talk to me about what you’ve done in this bleeding edge lately that has worked well.

Christopher S. Nudo: That’s really funny. So my bleeding edge, of course, won’t be the bleeding edge of somebody who is like yourself, who’s in the industry, who markets for people like myself. But from the customer standpoint, me being the customer of marketing firms and people who help me, you know when Google Local Services came out in our area, six years ago. I was like the first firm to sign up for estate planning. And I’ve always stayed at whatever LSA needs to be in 100% compliance to get us verified, I’m shocked at the number of firms that still are not part of LSA.

When pay-per-click became a means for lawyers to get clients, we were doing that. When videos became the thing to attract people, we started generating a lot of content. Google reviews, when it was noted that Google reviews were gonna really make a difference in how the web portrays you, we went out and asked all of our clients, Hey, let us know what your experience was with us. So that’s what I mean by bleeding edge. There’s nothing there that isn’t common sense these days, but amazing how many firms don’t do any of it.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah. So what you’ve done is very cleverly, you’ve kind of ridden the wave. When LSAs first came out, they were a great deal in major metropolitan markets. They’re not anymore. They’re a better deal in kind of smaller markets.

But they were the way to really get great clients. Google ads are much more expensive now. I still run them to profit, but they’re definitely much more expensive now. So grabbing that sort of trend and hopping on it is actually a talent. And you seem like you have a good marketing ability there because a lot of lawyers are very good lawyers, but they’re not necessarily natural marketers. So that’s why a lot of them are still not on LSA or Google Ads or some of these other things. It’s an interesting perspective a lot of the people I interview bring, because they happen to both be great lawyers in great marketers, even if they don’t realize it, it’s just comes naturally. I’ve noticed that’s the people who agree to join my podcast.

Okay, I noticed you were on a Fox Business Segments with Kevin Harrington. Is that how you ended up hiring him for your campaign?

Christopher S. Nudo: Yes. The Fox business segment part was the great experience. I received a message from them through LinkedIn and they said, Hey, Chris, we’ve really taken a look at who you are and what you do, and we think you’d be a great fit to be on Kevin Harrington’s show that runs on Fox Business. If you’re interested, please respond back to our message on LinkedIn. So I did.

Viktoria Altman: So finding those news appearances can be really great way to market yourself. In general, if you have a relationship with a network, they’ll keep asking you back to set up those relationships. It makes sense to reach out to people, and a lot of people do it via LinkedIn.

I have some clients who’ve reached out to talk show host or whatever that they liked of LinkedIn and just said things like, Hey, I do X, Y, Z. .Another important thing to bring in if you’ve done any guest lectures or if you educate in some not-for-profit space, that helps you build those news relationships.

And, shows have a media page as well on your website that would feature those appearances. It’ll help humans certainly convert this, right? You would take those videos and put them in, but also it helps AI understand that you are an authority in the field.

Lawyers are covered by an algorithm called EEAT. It stands for Expertise, Experience, Authority and Trustworthiness. So when search engine evaluates you, they’re looking to fulfill all parts of that algorithm. News appearances would go under authority.

Things like Avvo, Justia, and FindLaw profiles will go under expertise. If you have an about us page, you should feature where you went to school, where your bar is, for all of your lawyers, because that’s part of expertise algorithm for Google. So that’s another marketing tip.

Okay. This is my favorite question. I am a very big reader, and I was going to ask you what your favorite nonfiction book is. I have a feeling you’re going to say it’s the Bible.

I’ve read it as well. But what is your favorite nonfiction book?

Christopher S. Nudo: You’re absolutely right. Okay, so my number one answer, The Bible, because like for over 10 years now, I have read it cover to cover every year and every year it’s like brand new that I read it. However, I wanted to give you another answer because that seemed too easy.

I did pick out a few books that they’re all part of the same series. One of them is called The Joy Switch, it talks about your attitude, how you hold yourself, and the things you think about and it really being joy as a biblical principle in creating a form of happiness.

And, joy doesn’t have to be happiness, but how joy exudes in things. A partner book to the Joy Switch written by the same people, Rare Leadership in the Workplace, and that’s basically taking the Joy Switch principles and applying it to the workplace. And then finally, I like taking the same concepts and applying it to marriage.

And it’s The 4 Habits of a Joy-Filled Marriage, and that short little books and little series really has made a huge impact in my life.

Viktoria Altman: It sounds like you have a very joyful life.

Christopher S. Nudo: I try when my joy switch is in the right position.

Viktoria Altman: So lastly, what’s next for your firm? What are you excited about? What’s on your horizons?

Christopher S. Nudo: So recently, our brand NTegrity Law, we’ve really launched it as of January 1st. I’ve been out there for over 30 years but NTegrity Law as the brand that we’re just so happy about, is still fairly new. What we’ve done with the launching of the new brand has really made a big push in working with big corporations, mid-size corporations, and their owners doing their estate plans and business succession. That’s really what’s exciting for us on the horizon, is working with those people.

Also, i’ve done a few shows on NowMedia recently, which is on Roku TV, Apple TV, Prime Video, where we talk about the judicial system as a whole and the things that are plaguing our judicial system and how those people who are less fortunate, people who have been marginalized in today’s society can still get access to our judicial system and, not be crowded out as just a place where rich people can play.

Viktoria Altman: So it sounds like you’re really bringing in some of those biblical truths for helping the less fortunate into your practice and life.

Christopher S. Nudo: We are trying our best.

Viktoria Altman: That’s beautiful. Well, thank you so much, Christopher. I appreciate you being on the show. Do you have any last words of wisdom for our listeners?

Christopher S. Nudo: I’ve just had such a wonderful time. I just hope that something that you and I said here will help somebody. That’s always the goal of each day.

Viktoria Altman: That’s beautiful. Thank you, Chris.

Christopher S. Nudo: Thank you.