Tech-Forward Legal Practice: How Attorney Mary Liberty Innovates Estate Planning

Viktoria Altman: Hey guys, welcome to the Law Firm Accelerator. Today with us, we have Mary Liberty, who is an estate planning attorney. Hi Mary. Welcome to the show.

Mary Liberty: Hi. Thanks for having me.

Viktoria Altman: Do you wanna introduce yourself and tell us where you practice?

Mary Liberty: I am currently practicing in Chicago.

I do primarily estate planning and probate along with some adult guardianship. I founded the firm about a year ago after being in the estate planning and probate field. So it’s been going well and I’m glad to be here.

Viktoria Altman: Awesome. When did you open your practice?

Mary Liberty: June of 2024. So it’s been just about a year and things have grown and changed quite quickly, so it’s been quite a whirlwind of a year.

Viktoria Altman: I love it. A lot of times I speak with folks who’ve been in the industry for 20 years or 30 years and they certainly bring a lot of value to the show. But I’m very excited to speak with you because you mentioned you are doing some really high tech things, and I don’t hear that from a lot of the people I speak with.

Can you talk to me a little bit about the high tech work you’re doing to make your practice function better?

Mary Liberty: Yeah, absolutely.I’ve always had an interest in tech, even outside the legal field, so being able to open my own business and bring tech into the business has been a really fun and interesting experience. Especially now, I know AI, automation, those things are just exploding at the seams. So we have implemented quite a lot of automation within our firm. From just simple things of people signing on to automatically sending welcome emails and sending questionnaire to triggering things for reviews. And it saves a lot of repeat work and saves us hours of writing out emails that we send a million times to be able to really focus on what we should be doing, which is client communications and document drafting, being in court, things of that nature. So it’s constantly changing. We’re constantly thinking of new ideas to automate and it’s been cool to see where technology has led us as things are developing quickly.

I love it. We will definitely dig a little bit deeper into this. But for now, let’s go back to the start of your legal career in 2020. Great time to graduate. What was it like when the pandemic hit and how do you think that altered your path?

I remember I was finishing out my 3L year when COVID hit, and at first we were so excited, oh, all of our classes turned to be online.

But what we didn’t think of is how that’s going to affect the bar or job prospects or the future of our career at all. It was an interesting experience.

The bar exam was supposed to be in July of 2020. Which is typically, it’s always in July and February of each year. So the first thing we found out is that was not happening. So it was just canceled initially and they said, we’ll schedule a future date when we can. Then it got moved I believe to September.

It was continually being delayed. They eventually moved it to October, so it was delayed twice. When we finally took it. It was done, thank God.But it was an interesting experience because not only was that going on where we didn’t know when we’re taking the bar exam and we need that to practice, but there was a lot of uncertainty with jobs. And people would have job offers as they graduated that were being rescinded. People didn’t know if they would be able to get another job. I know a lot of firms at that time were downsizing rather than hiring. So it was a very uncertain time but also changed things quite a lot in the legal field, moving a lot of things online and via Zoom and especially court and things of that nature. It was kind of a turning point. It was interesting to be entering the legal field at that time when it was a lot of uncertainty. But things worked out and it certainly has taught a lot of us, who graduated at that time, to be very adaptive and ready to change.

But it was an interesting experience, that’s for sure.

Viktoria Altman: Were you always going to go into estate planning or did you pick it because that was sort of a thriving thing at the time? I remember all of my estate lawyers were so busy in 2020.

Mary Liberty: Yeah, no, I actually had initially gone into family law right out of law school. I had always loved estate planning. I remember wills and trust was my favorite class, and I did some additional clinic work on that in law school that I just loved. But I initially ended up going into family law and getting a job at a firm in family law. It didn’t turn out to be a passion of mine. I decided to get back into estate planning a couple years after I had graduated and absolutely just adored it. Wanted to absorb every single thing I could about estate planning and probate, and it is still a passion of mine. I love it every single day.

It’s definitely something that I’ve just love how it evolves and changes, and it’s certainly different than family law, but there’s a lot of similarities as well.

Viktoria Altman: Is there any specific type of estate planning cases you prefer to work with? Any focus that you currently have?

Mary Liberty: Yeah. You know, I don’t favor one type of estate planning package over another, but I’ve done a lot more special needs planning recently. And it’s a field where I think it’s really important, but it’s also really enjoyable to be working with families who care so much about their family members, that they wanna plan for them and make sure that they have a straight path forward.

So it’s been something that I’ve taken on more and more of in the recent past that I’ve really strived to be able to serve them in that area. And it’s been enjoyable.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah, I work with a couple of estate lawyers who’s specifically focused on special needs, and it does seem like the kind of field where you get to make a lot of impact on people’s lives.

Mary Liberty: Absolutely.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah. So from the beginning you decided to offer flat fees and meet your clients virtually. Now, as you know, this is a very sort of old school industry.

Lots of people really struggle with tech. Why did you decide to go in that direction, and how has that shaped your marketing?

Mary Liberty: Yeah, first and foremost,I mentioned that I worked in family law, which is a lot of billing and constantly recording every little thing that you do. And I hated it. So that was one thing, just looking at is flat fee even a possibility or am I gonna have to suck it up and continue to do that?

But I looked into it and kind of calculating what would be one, a fair prices to people so they’re not overpaying, but also making sure that we’re paid for the work that we’re doing. And it worked out. Every case is not gonna be this perfect fits into this flat fee bubble, but it’s been a great marketing tool for people knowing exactly what they’re paying.

They know right up front. They’re not receiving any other bills from us. And two, being able to say that we don’t over bill or we don’t bill for every little thing that we do. It’s one of the things that unfortunately is kind of the nature of the legal field, but something that bothered me was billing for every little email and every touch point with a client.

I know in some fields just not avoidable, but it’s something that I wanted to do a little bit differently.

Viktoria Altman: Has that impacted how you market your firm?

Mary Liberty: Absolutely. We focus on flat fees so much within our marketing and it’s something that really reigns true with a lot of clients as well. They like to hear, okay, I know exactly what I’m paying. There’s no mysteries. I’m not gonna be receiving a bill. I know how to budget for this and I know what to expect. That has helped quite a bit.

Viktoria Altman: Interesting. So I’m a marketer, right? That’s where my sort of love of this field lays. And so I’m curious what kind of marketing avenues have you taken to promote that flat fee structure?

Mary Liberty: When I first started out, I actually took a lot of legal insurance cases, which is not necessarily a marketing tactic, but it helps build a client base. So that’s one way I started out. Another big thing has been Google Local Service Ads. We’ve gotten a lot of clients from that and it’s pretty easy to set up. It’s pretty clear what the fees are gonna be, so the rate of return is quite high for that. The other thing is just getting involved through social media and the community. We do a lot of posting on Facebook and Instagram and Nextdoor. That’s where we can really rain true in the flat fee area, post a lot of informational articles and gain people’s interest in that way. So that wasn’t our initial marketing strategy, but has grown quite a lot and become a great way for us to reach the community.

Viktoria Altman: It’s interesting that you point out LSA. Local Service Ads have been a good venue for you because there are some folks who feel like it wasn’t a good venue for them and others who feel it is. I think with LSA, it’s important to have something unique that makes you stand out from your competitors, and it has to be very fast.

It has to be something summarized in three to five words in order for it to be a good ROI, which you clearly have. I think another venue that might be in the future, maybe not now, because you are in estate planning and because estate planning involves so much client nurturing before you get to the point of signing.

Another one, even though I don’t generally recommend this, for you it might work something like  TikTok. Commenting on cases, commenting on news items with your sort of sales pitch of this is our flat fee structure could be helpful to help build up your brand as well.

Mary Liberty: For sure. I’ve never been a TikToker, I don’t even have it downloaded, so it’s something I’ve heard, oh,try out TikTok you would be surprised how many people you’d interact with, but I eventually will bite the bullet just has not happened yet.

Viktoria Altman: I don’t generally recommend TikTok to lawyers because TikTok is more about nurturing. And so unless you are in a bit, you know, look, a DUI lawyer doesn’t need a TikTok.

A personal injury attorney, unless they have an unlimited budget, which God bless them. But how many people do?

But when you are an estate and it’s all about people coming to you, maybe they are not even making a decision right now. Maybe they’ll make a decision six months from now, a year from now and being seen, and for you to have this really unusual angle of flat fees, which not a lot of people do.

That can certainly be a big help.

Mary Liberty: Absolutely. Definitely something we’ll look into.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah. So now you mentioned LSA, which is an interesting one, but when it comes to marketing, what else has worked really well for you?

Mary Liberty: Honestly, one of the strongest things that we have noticed, we have gained a lot of clients following is really nurturing current clients to leave reviews. Reviews have been a huge plus for us and it can be tough if you’re not gonna start a business and automatically get a review, right?

You usually don’t get a review until, if you’re lucky, at the end of the case. And even then a lot of clients will ignore the email requests to leave a review. So it’s kind of an art within itself, but once you start gaining those reviews, it’s amazing how much business grows.

It’s not as simple as just sending one email. We’ve implemented sending automated texts and emailing a couple times and really when we’re having a completed session phone call with a client mentioning that as well. And that has helped us.

It is an art to do, but it’s a really big effect that it has on a business and your trustworthiness within the community. I think a lot of times when I’m thinking of marketing tactics is putting myself in the shoes of different services that I do.

Let’s say I need a plumber. How do I go and find a plumber? What do I trust? What do I do? And using my own experiences and applying it to our business has been really helpful.

Viktoria Altman: It sounds like you’ve done some research on this because you are aware of the strength of reviews and very few people are. Talk to me about the system that you have to get reviews. What is the actual structure of it? I’m curious because this sounds great.

Mary Liberty: Yeah, so one of the first things we do is really just geared towards estate planning. Probate’s a little bit of a different process, but when we are on our signing session, I typically do most of the notarizations, which may be uncommon but it’s another touch point that I have with clients.

And it is a time near the end I mention, this is complete, this is what you can expect next. And by the way, if you enjoyed your experience people typically really find us with reviews, and we’d really appreciate if you could take the time to leave one if you felt that you were satisfied with your service.

So that’s the first thing, is just getting their mind thinking about it. Once we send all the documents, we also, within the physical portfolio, have a little card with a QR code to leave a review, and put in with a goodie bag. So you’re kind of unwrapping little gifts and also seeing a review card.

So that’s another one. Of course, sending a couple emails, that we stagger out in time. We have a different tracking source to say, Hey, we’ve sent the initial review request. Here, we’ve sent the follow up. Here, we’ve sent the second follow up so we can really track, have they left a review yet?

Do we need to send another follow up? And we’ve just now implemented sending automated texts for review requests as well,

Knowing that a lot of people will respond more to texts coming into their phone sometimes than emails. A really different multidimensional approach to it has helped us a lot.

Some people scan the card, some people click on the email, some people click on the text. So just giving people different preferences for what they like and making sure not to spam them. That’s another thing as well, is not constantly sending them review requests, because that can easily piss people off.

It’s a delicate line, but we have tested it out to see what works best. And it’s been working well for us and really helped our business in the way that we’ve structured this.

Viktoria Altman: That’s awesome. Are you using any specific software to do this review outreach?

Mary Liberty: We do. Another interesting thing is we do all of our case management and lead management through Airtable, which is extremely customizable. It not only helps us track different things such as the case and leads and review requests, but it helps a lot with automation as well.

So once a case is completed, it actually goes into another, what they call our dashboards, which is just really a view of what you’re seeing. And you can click a button and it sends the review request via email to a client or click another button. It sends the text message and then automatically tracks when you send those things. So it’s a different approach. Not everyone uses that for case management, but something that works really well for us. And I’m really into the tech side of things, so being able to build that out and really customize it exactly how I want it has been a game changer.

Viktoria Altman: That’s brilliant. You should be teaching other lawyers because there’s a lot of people out there who could use this.

Mary Liberty: It’s fun when you get into it. I mean half of it doesn’t feel like work to me. I love discovering this stuff and designing it.It’s really fun for me. So being able to do that and see the benefits it has on a business is awesome. It’s just been so fun.

Viktoria Altman: I love it. Okay, so the reason why the review outreach is working so well is part of the fact that Google Business Profile algorithm is very much reliant on reviews. So when you go online and you search for, let’s say, estate planning attorney near me or even if it’s just estate planning attorney, Google is going to look at your location to the searcher, and then it’s going to look at the number of reviews and using those two primary factors, it’ll calculate whether or not we’ll show you to the searcher.

So by having very strong reviews, you can encourage Google’s algorithm to show you as much as possible. It doesn’t have the same effect on the website but Google Business Profile, it does. One thing to keep in mind, with more AI search, people are actually searching less on traditional Google and more in AI mode, as well as ChatGPT.

And Google Business Profile is going to become depreciated as a result because fewer people are just looking at traditional Google searches and with AI search. The reviews are still important, but not as important as they were with the GBP. It’s more about branding. It’s more about having identifiable news items.

It’s more about you as a brand, and so what the AI does, it pulls information about you from things like Amazon, AVO, and LinkedIn and a whole list of websites. Then it identifies the several websites that they believe is the best value for the searcher.

So just be careful about relying on just the GBP because it is getting depreciated and we are actually seeing less traffic from it. But more calls because a lot of those calls are now coming from the AI side of the world. Does that make sense?

Mary Liberty: Yeah, it does. Once you think you’ve mastered the local SEO and SEO of Google searches, it says, ah, forget it. Now you gotta work on AI. Okay, great. Now I gotta learn an entire new system to being indexed.

So it’s funny how that works. I mean, you get the brunt of it for sure.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah, It’s great. We go to a conference like forget everything we said last year. It’s totally different now this year.

Mary Liberty: And all this work that you did, it’s like, well now you gotta shift everything.

Viktoria Altman: Well, to an extent. I mean, it still helps, you know what I mean? You just have to stay current. I’ll have people come to me and they say things like, well, for 20 years this worked and now it no longer works. And I’m like, what’d you think was going to happen 20 years ago?

We were all using palm pilots. Things change.

Mary Liberty: Right. I remember learning how to type and do all this computer stuff in grade school and what we were able to do then and what we’re able to do now, just in that amount of time’s been crazy. So can you imagine where we’re gonna be even 20 years from now?

It’s just unfathomable But something to really keep on top of, I always say if you’re not keeping up with this, you’re gonna get left behind. You shouldn’t be worried about AI replacing you or your business, but keeping up with it so you can stay on top of these new developments.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah, I mean, I don’t know we’re gonna be here from now, for the 20 years.

Mary Liberty: I know. The developments even last year with AI, now it’s crazy.

Viktoria Altman: Here’s an interesting one. You have a free estate planning guide, is it like a book or is it like a brochure?

Mary Liberty: It’s a PDF essentially. Like a13 page PDF that goes through the basics of estate planning. A lot of people come to us and they know what a will is, it’s a very common knowledge thing, but maybe they don’t know what a trust is or what a trust does, or what the different benefits are.

Some people aren’t familiar with powers of attorney or healthcare directives, and it just gives an insight into, this is what these documents are, this is how it can help you. Here are some other options. If you have a unique situation and goes through that so they know what questions to ask.

If they’re going with us or another attorney, that’s fine. But just knowing what questions to ask, knowing what they might need. And it has actually brought us some business as well with people. We have our name and phone number, website all on the guide. And it wasn’t necessarily our intention to bring in through a guide, but it’s kind of worked out that way.

It was really just to be helpful to the community to know, hey,this is something that can be really helpful for you. Just educating people a bit and it’s been a positive impact for sure.

Viktoria Altman: So that’s really a good strategy for somebody who does nurturing leads. But here’s a tip for you, if you can get it listed on Amazon and you can create an Amazon author page for yourself. Those author pages are used in AI overview, so they’ll pull information about you into AI. So what you wanna do is you can list your practice areas, the name of your firm and all that stuff.

A nice property list completely for free that can help you. As long as you have unique and original content, Amazon will put it up and you can sell it for $0. You can sell it for $1.

Mary Liberty: I hadn’t thought of that before. You’re gonna see my new author page tomorrow.

Viktoria Altman: I love it. Well,that’s why I work in marketing. All you need is one good idea a week.

So talk to me about other marketing ideas. Have you tried something and it didn’t work out for you, and what did you take away from that experience?

Mary Liberty: Yeah, a lot of times I’m in different Facebook groups and that’s where I get some good ideas or spiral off of certain ideas.

And a lot of things that are typically recommended are these estate planning sessions or webinars, but also in-person type of education meetings and things of that nature. I did a meeting at a senior community center. And granted, it was a great experience. I met a lot of great people. But it just wasn’t something as far as putting in the time and traveling and doing this kind of educational session that I think is something that I’m gonna focus on going forward.

It just not for me, and I don’t think that means it won’t be great for other people and other people won’t find that helpful. It just not something that I think I wanna focus on. I think the time put into the sessions is more than the return that I’ve experienced. And granted, I’ve only done it once or twice, so I can’t really judge too much on it, but I think I found it’s not my preferred method. And while it could be others, it’s just not something that’s the best fit for us.

Viktoria Altman: That makes a lot of sense. Actually, one of my clients, they’ve been doing webinars for 30 years. They continue to send out the exact same flyer they did 30 years ago, and they’ve built an entire huge business around this. And it’s brilliant, right?If it’s not broken, don’t fix it. I’m flabbergasted, but it still works.

But I think it’s all about the authenticity of who you are. So you are a very clearly tech forward person. You’re very comfortable with computers and they’re not as tech forward, right? So for them that face-to-face interaction makes a lot more sense with their authentic brand and their brand identity.

So I think it’s all about kind of leaning into what works better for you. I never met most of my clients. I’ve had Zoom calls and that’s it.

Never had any sort of in the same place as you.

Mary Liberty: Yeah, and it’s worth trying out. I definitely say touch your toes in every different pool, but some things may not work and that’s okay. You can always move on to what does. I think that’s true with even just the legal fields, trying different fields until you find what works best for you.

That’s what it’s all about.

Viktoria Altman: Right. You only get one life. You should do something that brings you joy.

Mary Liberty: Exactly. And I did not enjoy that, so I’m not gonna do it.

Viktoria Altman: So your umbrella firm, Ivy Legal, covers both estate and uncontested divorce. Are you still working with that? How are you dealing with growing estate practice and uncontested divorce practice? What’s your secret?

Mary Liberty: Yeah, so our full business name is Ivy Legal, doing business as Illinois Estate Law. But when I first started the firm, of course it’s only been a year, I didn’t wanna let go of divorce completely. I had all of this knowledge of working in divorce and doing certain types of cases that I thought at least it is kind of a side business. I’ll just keep it going.

I know how to market for my estate planning firm. Let’s just kind of pull this into the divorce firm as well. So it’s a very niche firm. I would say probably 95% of the business I bring is for the estate planning and probate firm. But it’s still something that I wanna stay involved in, not in a full-time capacity. I do uncontested divorce and custody, premarital agreements and modification of post-divorce agreements. So again, it’s a very niche area. It’s not gonna fit every case, but it’s something where I can still handle the capacity of it. Have an involvement in the divorce and family law field while making sure that the estate planning and probate field is my primary focus.

Viktoria Altman: Got it. Are you working alone and do you have associates that work for you?

Mary Liberty: So I’m the sole attorney right now, but there are paralegals and legal assistants as well that work with me. We are expanding very quickly. It started with just me doing everything, but it’s growing so quickly that we’ll be bringing on new people shortly.

Viktoria Altman: One of my first clients. She started off this way and I think she has a lot of paralegals now and maybe bringing a lawyer, but it’s so funny when you’re technology forward, a lot of the lawyer work doesn’t actually need to be done by the lawyer, right?

Mary Liberty: It could be done by either automation or paralegal, and then you can come in for the most important work. Right. And every time I  think about hiring, I’m always asking myself, well, is this something I could just automate? It’s kind of crazy to think about but even something, especially for family law, I’ve automated so much so that I can focus primarily on estate planning and probate.

We’ve automated notices that you fill in the information, it populates the form, it automatically sends it to the e-filing system to be filed. It automatically sends it to a mailing service to be mailed out. So it’s kind of a no touchpoint system but I ask myself that a lot.

If I’m hiring somebody, what am I gonna have them do? Can I just automate this instead rather than bringing in someone new. And sometimes, yeah, I definitely can. Other times, no, it’s probably best to have another person. So it’s a question that I always wanna make sure that I am solving before hiring.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah, I am struggling with it the other way around. I would love to hire more people, but our standards are so high.

Mary Liberty: That’s the problem because you have this perfect person in mind of who you want to bring in.

But then that’s not necessarily going to be the case and wrapping your head around that is a challenge as well.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah, and sometimes it’s easier to automate than to bring in a lower level person, but of course it’s those lower level people who will end up growing to higher level people. So there is a balance there.

Mary Liberty: You know, trust with a person, get them used to system so it’s not a quick thing, but it could grow into something really great. It’s that constant internal battle of do I wanna do this or not. But, it’s been great so far. So we’ll continue to grow.

Viktoria Altman: Awesome. So you prioritize work life balance. When you’re not busy helping clients, what do you do for fun?

Mary Liberty: I’m big movie buff. We love going to movies, watching movies. We have a little dog who is not here right now, but she normally is in my Zoom videos. So we love just hanging out at home with family. We travel quite a bit, like to read and be outside.

It’s really important to me to maintain that work life balance because it’s good for mental health, it’s good for our family. And it’s just making sure that work doesn’t take over your life. It should be a part of your life, but it shouldn’t be your entire life.

And making sure that’s a priority as well.

Viktoria Altman: And that’s another theme that a lot of successful lawyers have running through their lives, whether they are in their sixties and getting ready to retire or just recently graduated. Everyone I speak with understands that you have to put life first no matter how much you love your job.

Speaking of books, I’m a big reader, and I love to ask for a recommendation. What is your favorite nonfiction book? If you can think of one.

Mary Liberty: Well, you have me thinking of these books that I read when I was first starting the firm. I mean, I’m sure you’re probably not intending that they be all legal oriented, but there’s a lot of great books that helped build the website, build marketing, things of that nature. I remember one was SEO For Law Firms. There was something fire starter, something of that nature that are popular books. They’re always on my desk and they’re always with me as I’m referring to them. Fiction wise, I’m a big psychological thriller girl.

I love psychological thrillers. I’m in a Facebook group, which makes me sound so nerdy, but I’m always getting recommendations from it.

Viktoria Altman: What’s a good one? I haven’t read fiction in a while. Maybe I should pick it up.

Mary Liberty: I do audio books as well, when I’m driving or things of that nature. I just finished one, it was called Gray Before Dark. I don’t wanna give it away, but it’s a good book that keeps you on your toes. A big thing about me is I gotta keep my attention if I’m reading it. A lot of twists and turns.

They’re dark because they’re psychological thrillers, but they’re good.

Viktoria Altman: That sounds good, I will check it out. So what’s next for Illinois Estate Law? What’s your plan for the next year? Five years?

Mary Liberty: That’s a good question. We’re gonna continue to grow. We’re looking at adding in different practice areas. We’ve just gotten into adult guardianship, which is certainly in many ways related to estate planning, but looking in the future to maybe add on some adoption cases and things of that nature and grow and continue to add in more people and we’ll see where it takes us.

It’s been a crazy year so far, so we’ll see where it goes from here.

Viktoria Altman: Do you have any new marketing ideas on the horizon that you’re going to test out?

Mary Liberty: We’ve just started doing a lot of stuff on Nextdoor, which it’s not an app that I use, primarily just didn’t happen to be something in my Wheelhouse, but we’ve started using that quite a bit and it’s been amazing the results that we’ve seen. Even just posting random fun facts and things on Nextdoor has been great.

Viktoria Altman: Interesting.I gotta check it out. All right. Thank you so much, Mary. Do you have any last words of wisdom for anybody out there who is listening, maybe thinking about striking out on their own?

Mary Liberty: Just do it. It’s the best decision I ever made, and it’s a learning process every single day, but it’s been amazing.

And something where I’m continuing to learn from others and learn from myself. You’re gonna make mistakes, that’s just a given. But learning from them is the biggest lesson you’ll have.

So just do it if you’re thinking about it. It’s the best and I would never go back.

Viktoria Altman: Some great words of wisdom.

All right, guys. Stick around.