Building a Client-First Bankruptcy Practice with Amber Willingham

Viktoria Altman: Guys, welcome to the Law Firm Accelerator. Today with us we have Amber Willingham, a bankruptcy attorney down in Houston, Texas. Amber, can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you do?

Amber Willingham: Thank you so much for having me on your show. I really appreciate it. My name is Amber Willingham. I am an attorney in Houston, Texas. I’ve been practicing law for about 30 years. I am married, been married for about 28 years, and I have two children. They’re both adult-ish. I’ve got one that’s at UT in her senior year, and then my oldest graduated college and has a job and is doing his thing in Houston. My practice focuses on bankruptcy, consumer bankruptcy, Chapter 7s and Chapter 13s. I have not always been a consumer debtor attorney, but I have always practiced in the bankruptcy realm.

Viktoria Altman: Awesome. So,how did you realize that this is what you wanted to do? Why specifically bankruptcy?

Amber Willingham: So the funny thing about that is when I was in law school, I interned with a bankruptcy attorney and I thought to myself, after a week in his law firm, I am never doing that. That was horrible. And then I interned at a couple of different types of firms. Personal injury and wills and trusts, and I decided that bankruptcy was actually a little more interesting to me. My first real job out of law school was at the Oklahoma Tax Commission and they put me in the bankruptcy department. So I kind of just fell into the world of bankruptcy.

Viktoria Altman: It. So when you decided to go out on your own, did you start off as a bankruptcy lawyer when you started? When did you open your own firm, by the way?

Amber Willingham: So I started my practice six years ago. I took a little stint in my career where I would work part-time for Chapter 13 trustees, and I would handle 341 meetings. I did part-time work for a judge doing fee application audits for Chapter 11 bankruptcies. I was raising my kids at that time and I was fortunate enough that I could just work here and there and do odd jobs in bankruptcy for about 10 years. And when my children grew up and left, I decided it was time for me to hang a shingle and put my law degree at work. And I thought, what better way than to be a debtor attorney? I didn’t know if I was gonna like it. I didn’t know what it would be like compared to representing creditors or trustees and such. And it turns out I love it. So it worked out nicely.

Viktoria Altman: Interesting. You just opened six years ago, so you were relatively new at running your own practice and I know a lot of women have that path of I’m going to work part-time while I raise my kids, and then hopefully when they get out of the house’s, not guaranteed anymore, but at some point they leave.

And then you decided to go out on your own. And you’ve decided to just niche in one practice right away.

Amber Willingham: I did. Honestly, there’s no particular reason for it except that I had no interest in learning anything new. I knew the bankruptcy laws. I knew the people. This is a tight knit group of bankruptcy attorneys here in Houston, and we’re very friendly with each other.

I had a person mentor me when I opened up and I had a lot of encouragement from the bankruptcy community. So,there was never a question for me on where I was going to hang my flag in the world. And it has worked out nicely also because I know the other side, I’m very familiar with creditor work and with what the trustees are looking for.

Viktoria Altman: Got it. So, you worked for the Oklahoma Tax Commission and Chapter 13 trustees in Texas. Is there anything that you learned from those roles that you can use when you speak with clients?

Amber Willingham: Absolutely. When I worked with the Oklahoma Tax Commission, I was in the bankruptcy department. So I had a crash course on what it takes to discharge your taxes and what taxes can be discharged, what can’t be discharged, and what it means to be assessed and when that happens. It’s very helpful in determining when people should file a bankruptcy.

Sometimes, I’ll look at their case and say, you know what, if we wait a year, you can discharge a whole lot more taxes than if we filed right now. With the trustee’s office, I was able to learn what the trustees were looking for and how they operated, which was very important.

And also I’ve learned how to calculate disposable income, which is not easy to do. I know how to do it correctly now and I know what the trustee looks for when they are looking for payment.

Viktoria Altman: We’re gonna jump ahead a little bit, but this is basically a show about marketing. Are you able to use this in your marketing? If so, how?

Amber Willingham: I do. I use that card every chance I get. I put it on my website. I put it on my blogs. I am fortunate enough to have been on the other side of the table. I think that brings a different element to my clients, knowing exactly what the creditors are looking for, what they’ll agree to, and what the trustee is looking for, and what they will agree to. It’s a nice aspect to be able to share with my clients.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah, your website actually specifically says you aim to inform, educate and empower.How does that come through when you are speaking with clients?

Amber Willingham: So I pride myself on treating my clients, like people, not clients. I explain what’s happening in their case, why it’s happening, and I don’t just represent them. I like to educate them. I don’t want them to have to come back to me. I want this to be it. The only time they have to file bankruptcy, the only time they have to learn this lesson. I let them know that if they have a question, they can call me and ask me, and I am gonna answer the phone. I am gonna talk to them. And if I can’t talk to ’em, I’m gonna call ’em back. I don’t like the just trust me attitude. That doesn’t work for everyone. It’s translated into my clients being my biggest marketing tool.

Viktoria Altman: Your clients are your biggest marketing tool. Tell me about that, how does that work?

Amber Willingham: They’re happy when they leave me, most of the time. Now, do I have some unhappy clients? Yeah. I think there’s been one or two, but for the most part, my clients are happy. They enjoy talking to me. In fact, I just got an email from a client who got a discharge a little over a year ago, and he wanted to reach out and say, Hey, I want you to know that I haven’t forgotten about you and that I just really appreciate you and I appreciate how you treated me and that you didn’t judge me.

Viktoria Altman: So when you have folks like that, do you ask ’em to leave your reviews all over the place? Do they go to Avvo? Do they go to Google?How do you ask them to share that experience?

Amber Willingham: So for every client that I have once discharged is entered, that’s it. We’re done. Our relationship is over and I put their file in storage and I send them a nice letter and I say, you know, we’re done. Your discharge is entered. Here’s what you do with this.

And if you would not mind please go and give me a review. I usually ask for a review on Google. I find that most of my clients come from a Google search.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah. Having those reviews is really important. One tip I could share with you is if someone doesn’t leave a review, following up with them in a different media like texting or call or something like that because those reviews are probably one of the biggest ranking factors for Google Maps.

So the more you can get them know how powerful they are.

Amber Willingham: It’s hard to get reviews doing what I do. ‘Cause people don’t wanna advertise, Hey, I used this bankruptcy attorney and she was great. ‘Cause that’s kind of admitting to the whole world. Look what I did. And I’m very pleased when people do leave me a review and this gentleman agreed that I could take his email and put it on my website.

I thought that was nice.

Viktoria Altman: Got it. So with divorce, bankruptcy, criminal, it’s harder to get reviews for sure.

The marketing tip I could give you is ask him, just leave a five star.

They don’t have to write anything. Just having an extra five star is going to help you still.

So you offer a free 30 minute consultation.

Now that’s expensive for a lawyer. I know a lot of folks who offer a consultation, but somebody will speak with an intake specialist or they will ask to get paid for that consultation. How did you come to that decision and how does that work in your marketing?

Amber Willingham: So I want my clients to know that this is a judgment free zone. I’m not gonna scold them or lecture them, and I’m not gonna hand them off. I’m gonna be the one that they talk to. When people are filing bankruptcy, they’re sensitive, they’re raw, and they’re embarrassed and they don’t want people to know what they have gone through.

And a lot of times they feel a lot of shame for having messed up financially. I mean, I’ve got a whole list of famous bankruptcy, lots of people have done it. That’s why the bankruptcy system is here. It’s to help people get a fresh start. I am shocked at the number of phone calls I get where they think that there’s debtor jail. They think they’re gonna go to jail because they didn’t pay their credit card. You would be shocked.

And the relief that they have when they find out not only are you not gonna go to jail, you most likely are judgment proof. There’s not a lot that can be done to you, and especially in the state of Texas. They can’t garnish your paycheck. They can garnish your bank account, but they have to find it first. I think that a 30 minute free consultation is the least I can do. My overhead is very little. I don’t have any employees. It’s just me. I didn’t borrow any money to start this journey. I’m just paying as I go the bills that come up. So for me, that free 30 minute consultation is a huge marketing bonus.

Viktoria Altman: Okay. So a lot of folks out there who are listening to this are considering how they want to go out on their own, and you’ve chosen to go out on your own with very low costs.

It sounds like you’re doing most of the work yourself and you are able to offer more bang for the buck, I guess.

Are you happy with where you are? Are you looking to grow or do you like having this sort of a lifestyle practice?

Amber Willingham: I’m very happy with where I am. My husband is a finance guy. When I started this whole thing out, he made me do a business plan. I had to project where I would be in five years. I nailed it on the head. I am exactly where I projected and I’m very happy with where I am. If I were to grow a little bit more, I would have to hire because there’s only so much one person can handle.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah, scaling is certainly a challenge. A lot of solo attorneys come across eventually. And hiring is a whole different ballgame, especially if you’re hiring in office, which means there’s all kinds of employment, labor, applications and things like that. Are you looking at scaling or you want to stay as a one person firm?

What would you say to people who are considering that question for themselves?

Amber Willingham: I really like being a one person firm, but I’ve never had to turn anybody down. I don’t know that I wanna start turning people down. It’s not gotten too crazy, but I think I’m at my maximum of cases per month.

So far I’ve been able to maintain it and not have to worry about. If I could get away with it and not scale, I would stay.

Viktoria Altman: Got it. It’s funny, right? Because in our society, we’re always asked, what’s next? How are you gonna grow? Where are you going next? I speak with lawyers all the time who are quite happy with where they are, and they don’t necessarily want to get bigger, and I think that’s a very valid choice.

But a lot of people out there also want to grow. So speaking of growth, you do a lot of local networking. You do BNI, I know that BNI has a whole range of reviews. I’ve spoken to people who absolutely love it and I’ve spoken to people who haven’t had the best luck with it. What is your experience and what are the other networking things that you do?

Amber Willingham: So with BNI, you have to look at the rate of return, right? The return on investment for me, it is just one case. One case would justify one year of BNI. It’s hard. I love the people in my BNI group. They’re fantastic.And I think I’ve made friends for life. It’s hard to market me because you’re not gonna go to your neighbor. You’re not gonna go to your friend and say, Hey, are you broke? Do you need some financial help? I noticed those credit card bills are stacked up in your mailbox. You know, you’re not gonna do that. So first of all, I taught them what a Chapter 7 was, what a Chapter 13 was, and how to avoid it, how to avoid filing. And then secondly, what I taught them was look, observe, see the signs. When people are struggling, they try to keep it to themselves, but sometimes it’s obvious and it never hurts to just hand them a card and say, Hey, I don’t know what’s going on, but I know this woman and she helps people with their finances.

Here’s her card. You don’t have to say the word bankruptcy. Not everybody who’s having financial difficulty needs to file bankruptcy. And if I don’t feel like you need to, after I talk to you and hear your story, we’re not gonna put you there. Even if you still want to, I may send you to somebody else because, there is a right way to go about it and a wrong way, and we wanna do it the right way.

Viktoria Altman: Would you say BNI is beneficial to a bankruptcy lawyer who might be considering, or is it something that you enjoy but maybe not the best kind of bang for the buck because of the restrictions of the way you can market yourself?

Amber Willingham: It’s not reallyand of course,my particular group is predominantly tradesmen. It’s been an interesting mix of people.We’ve got CPA, insurance people, real estate agents, and tradesmen. I don’t think it was necessarily the best bang for my buck. It did help me with my public speaking, and it helps me gather my thoughts on what it is that I do. If I needed to create a blog or sit down and write or do a video on Chapter 7 or Chapter 13 I know how to do that now because I’ve had to teach people who had no idea what these things meant. So in that respect, it’s been very beneficial for me.

Viktoria Altman: Got it. What would you say is the most successful marketing venue that you’ve used? Besides your current clients, of course, ’cause that’s always gonna be the best way.

Amber Willingham: Yeah, there really are. I think I can tell you my worst first.

So when I first started practicing, I hung my shingle out. I pulled all the attorneys that I dealt with from the trustee’s office and I was like, how do you get your clients? What do you do? So a lot of them did solicitation letters because what we would do is you could go onto the local county clerk’s office and you could pull all the lawsuits for debt. And you would be shocked at the number per day that are filed. So you pull these and attached to that are the defendant’s addresses. So I hired a girl to collect all this information, the defendant and the address and who’s suing them. AndI would send letters. I did that for a few years before I finally sat down and started doing the math. And I was like, this doesn’t make any sense. I am barely getting one or two clients per group of letters and I’m paying a lot of money for the service and for the paper, the stamps, you know, half of ’em would come back as undeliverable.

So it was then that I decided. That I would take a little bit of that money and put it towards social media campaign. That I would pay somebody to do social media campaign and which would also be a little bit of SEO, not your typical SEO, but it would translate into a little bit of movement on my website.

So for I think maybe a quarter of what I was spending on these letters, I started paying this woman to do these things, and it has really paid off.

Viktoria Altman: Interesting. Okay, so a couple of important things there. A lot of people assume that’s just because something is working for someone, or even if somebody thinks something is working for them, then it’s gonna work for you. It’s very important to keep track of the money there and what is my ROI, what is my specific calls based on this specific campaign.

And so for you guys, like, I’m sure a lot of bankruptcy lawyers are doing the same thing going out there and sending these letters which is why it’s not working. These things stop working when the market gets saturated. When it comes to social media, that is a very interesting thing that you feel it’s working for you because I speak to a lot of folks on the show and I don’t often hear people tell me that they know their social media is working. So what are you doing? Please tell us. And why is it working?

Amber Willingham: one of the things that happens, so I’m in a suburb, right? This is a little sleepy suburb of Houston. And I have found that other than Google, the biggest source of my new clients is people getting on the little town Facebook page and saying, Hey, does anybody know a bankruptcy attorney?

And then coupled with BNI, because I know there are a couple of my BNI friends who are on there all the time. They are always on there plugging and marketing and doing things on these Katie web pages or Katie Facebook pages and dropping my name when that comes up.

I’ve had that happen a lot. Other than that, when they drop my name, then they go look for me. And when they look for me, they’re gonna find the social media that I’ve been paying for. They’re gonna find the blogs, they’re gonna find the informational stuff, and they’re gonna go to my website where they’re gonna find more blogs and videos and information. Even better yet, when they call me, I’m the one that answers. So I’ve had many people go, wow, you’re the attorney? I do have a friend who was in BNI with me, and he said, why are you answering the phone? You should pay somebody to answer your phone.

You’re worth more than that. I disagree. I did that once I had somebody answer my phone and I didn’t like it. I ghost called. And I didn’t like the way they answered, I didn’t like the way it sounded. Maybe that’s a control issue for me, but I don’t know.

Viktoria Altman: So a couple of really interesting things there. Have you ever heard of something called remarketing?

Amber Willingham: No.

Viktoria Altman: So when somebody visits your website and doesn’t contact you, which I’m sure happens all the time, you can target them with ads for 30 or 60 days so that when they go on Facebook, for instance, they’ll see your ads.

You could do it through Google as well. You do need a certain number of people in that group because privacy issues and things like that. So I think it has to be something like a thousand visitors. Not quite sure if you are there, if you live in such a small place, but you can install a remarketing pixel on your website.

You can literally Google, you don’t need someone like myself to do it. And you can basically follow those people around without getting too crazy.

That answers a lot of questions for me about why I get some of the marketing stuff that I get. Yes. You know how you look at a pair of shoes and then they follow you around the internet?

Amber Willingham: And the next thing you know, that’s all you’re seeing.

Viktoria Altman: So what that does is also helps folks who are on the fence, who have a long sales cycle, who maybe think they can deal with it, and then realize they can’t. And if you have competitors that may also come up at the top.

Then, the other marketing strategy is the more people see you, the more they trust you, right? They don’t even have to know much about you. It’s just seeing your name. For instance, when folks come to my website, they will see my ads, follow them around the internet, showing them my book and all kinds of things.

So that’s something that could be useful. But if you are in such a small, tight community, then you might not even need quite that much. But it’s certainly something to explore.

Amber Willingham: Okay. Thank you.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah. The other thing is I wanted to talk to you about the phone thing.

So there is software called CallRail. There’s many different kinds of software out there, but CallRail is the one that everybody uses.

What you can do there is you can use different phone numbers for different things. You can have one phone number for your Facebook ads so you know exactly where those calls are coming from.

You can have one phone number for your website. A different phone number for a newspaper ad and you can also record those calls. Now, I don’t know if you’re in the one party consent state or not. I don’t remember about Texas. But if you’re in a one party consent state, you can record the calls and see how your calls are being answered by the receptionist, so you don’t have to cold call yourself.

I personally like to do it in all one party consent states, and then I will ask my clients to please listen to the calls and make sure they’re happy with how their phones are answered. Because I’m not always happy.

Amber Willingham: Yeah,I wasn’t.It just took one time for me to say, no, I don’t.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah. It’s just something that could work as well. So you are in a city with many large firms, but it sounds like you’re sort of in a suburban community where everybody kind of knows each other.

Do you compete with the big firms in Houston, or are you really a unique entity in where you are?

Amber Willingham: I probably compete with the big firms in Houston, but I have found that most bankruptcy firms are small. While they’re not sole practitioners, many of them are two or three attorney type firms. The bigger firms tend to handle the Chapter 11s and Chapter 5s, the big business and corporate bankruptcies and restructures.

Viktoria Altman: Got it. So it sounds like you got yourself a nice little niche. You got yourself a nice area, you have a really good setup. And one of the keys to becoming successful is just finding the right area to be in. Sometimes they’ll speak with a great lawyer, but look, if there is five other lawyers who do the same thing in your building, it’s gonna be much harder for me to market you.

That if everybody knows you and you live in a small community, that’s just how the world is.

So what is it exactly that you’re doing in Facebook? Are you also doing ads? And what do the ads say?

Amber Willingham: No, I have not been doing ads. I’ll tell you a little bit about why I started doing this. I’m a writer and I just published my first book and that’s when I hire this woman because I found that it’s easier to sell me as an attorney than it is to sell my book. I write fiction and that’s hard to plug.

It’s hard to sell. So I started using her for the book. And she was making a difference for me. I thought, you know what? Why not use her for my law firm? And that’s why that came to fruition. With the book, I had done the ads, but I didn’t really get a lot of return for that. We have not even talked about doing ads for the law firm. But the rate of return on this has really been amazing. I don’t know if it’s just because it’s so new. I don’t know if everybody’s broke. I don’t know what exactly is going on, but I’ve only been using her for about six months and it has made a big difference in my firm.

Viktoria Altman: So she’s just posting natural conversations or posts and that’s where your rate of return has been so big. Interesting.

Amber Willingham: I’m of course giving her the blurb because I wanna make sure that it’s legal and that we’re not making promises we can’t keep or giving free legal advice. I’m giving her a whole bunch at the beginning of the month. And she is taking it and putting a video or a photo with it, making it interesting the way it shows up, the way it converts on the screen. and she’s posting it on LinkedIn. She’s posting it on Facebook. She’s posting it on my website. And then she’s doing it again and recycling twice a week. My face is gonna pop up. Something new is gonna pop up. It might not be new, but it was done three months ago.

So far it’s been working.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah, so my feeling is probably because you are in such a small market. People are recognizing you and they’re clicking on you because they recognize you. ‘Cause it doesn’t sound like something that’s super aggressive or very targeted. It sounds like it’s giving you additional brand recognition, which is valuable, but it’s also because you’re probably in a good market as well.

You said you are a writer. Is this your book?

Amber Willingham: I don’t know if you can see it. So my book is Bliss Creek. It’s dystopian.

My pen name is A.L. Willingham

Viktoria Altman: Got it. So I was going to make a suggestion for you, I don’t know if this is gonna work if you are using your pen name, but you are selling an Amazon. Amazon is extremely powerful, as we all know, and there is something called Amazon Author Profile, which is being taken by all the major AI models as a very important source.

So I have optimized my own Amazon author profile to include all the things that I do and keywords and the things I wanna rank for and all that stuff. Now since you’re using your pen name, you may or may not want to mention your bankruptcy attorney. But if you wanted to do it, it would be a good idea.

Amber Willingham: I thought about it and I didn’t wanna mix the two. So for example, if you’re gonna research the website, I didn’t want my bankruptcy clients to end up at a bookstore. And vice versa, I didn’t want people who were looking for my book ending up at a bankruptcy website.

That’s why I did it that way. And I did the author profile, but again, it’s under AL.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah. And that’s a totally valid, legitimate choice. You could even have two author profiles, right? If you had a book on bankruptcy, and it’s a very exciting topic.

Amber Willingham: Also a book to help you sleep.

Viktoria Altman: It’s a two for one. So I love that you love books. I am a big reader too, and this is one of my favorite questions. So tell me about your favorite non-fiction book ever and why?

Amber Willingham: That’s a hard question for me ’cause I’m a fiction girl, but if I’m gonna read non-fiction, it’s going to be a book about how to write or a theological book. And so my favorite book of all time that is nonfiction is called Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott. It is a book about sometimes we can’t see the tree for the forest in front of us or see the forest for the tree. And this book just talks about how to focus and just check it off Bird by Bird. One thing at a time.

One character at a time. One case at a time. I love that book.

Viktoria Altman: I love it. Thank you. That’s a very good recommendation and I should certainly try to slow down.

Amber Willingham: It’s hard. I mean, you slow down and then you’re like, well, I’ve got too much to do. And then I can’t tell you what I did ’cause I was going too fast.

Viktoria Altman: So Amber, what’s next for you or your firm? It sounds like you’re in a good place. Are you looking to do some exciting things? Anything you wanna share with us?

Amber Willingham: So I’ve got a new book coming out. The Petroleum Wars, that’ll be out before the end of the year as far as the law firm goes.

If things keep on trend, I probably will have to hire somebody next year. We’ll see where the finances land, and hopefully I can find that perfect assistant that can answer the phones, help me with my client,the client numbers and do all the things.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah. First of all, congratulations on your book. It sounds like something I would read Petroleum Wars. It sounds very post-apocalyptic.

Amber Willingham: It’s exactly what it is.

Viktoria Altman: But in terms of growing, you do have options. There are folks who choose to hire outside of the US and folks who choose to hire inside the US.

Of course, there’s a lawyer. There are certain things in keeping data and all that stuff. But there are also firms that will specialize in helping lawyers find staff abroad.

It becomes really complicated with all the international laws. It’s hard to hire. I’m struggling to hire too. I have 15 employees and I haven’t hired anybody in four months, and it has not been for lack of trying.

Amber Willingham: That is a lot. Well,I was thinking about using a temporary firm or a firm attempt to hire type things.

That they would have to deal with the paperwork and insurance and taxes. It’s food for thought. I’m gonna have to do my research.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah, that’s a good path. Thank you so much for coming on. Do you have any last words of wisdom for anybody who is thinking of going out on their own, is not sure they wanna do it?

Amber Willingham: Absolutely.Thank you so much for having me on. My recommendation is don’t bet the farm. You don’t need to go into debt in order to fulfill your dreams.

Viktoria Altman: I love it. Thank you so much, Amber.