Complex Personal Injury Cases: Joseph Gates on Marketing, Advocacy, and Empathy

Viktoria Altman:  Hey guys, welcome to this episode of Law Firm Accelerator podcast. Today with us we have Joseph Gates, a personal injury attorney who practices in Little Rock, Arkansas. Joseph, welcome to the show.

Joseph Gates: Hey, thanks for inviting me. I really do appreciate it.

Viktoria Altman: I love having you here. Could you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your practice?

Joseph Gates: Oh yeah, sure. I am a lifelong Arkansan other than the four years I spent at college at Louisiana Tech, but, I live in Little Rock, which is the capital city. I am all things Razorbacks. I am used to dealing with disappointments and angst and but this is going to go great. I’m looking forward to visiting with you.

Viktoria Altman: I love it. So I’m not a big sports person, but I’m guessing that’s a sports, right?

Joseph Gates: Oh, yes. Inevitably, we have mastered the ability to lose when we should win, but also win when we should lose. And so it’s just there’s no consistency and  I’m convinced. It’s psychological trauma that I’ve endured, for almost 20 years of being a Razorback fan.

Viktoria Altman: The PTSD helps you in your practice.

Let’s talk about your practice. Can you tell me a little bit? I know you’re a personal injury lawyer. What do you specialize in? Who is your ideal client? That kind of thing.

Joseph Gates: Sure. I usually deal with People on their worst day. It’s usually traumatic events that have happened that I tried to help them navigate.

It’s usually complex cases, being a solo. I usually deal with other lawyers who have messy files that they don’t want to mess with. they seem to think I do a pretty good job. they will refer messy cases to me that I try to help clean up or just complicated, risky, financially, expert driven cases,

 my ideal client is probably someone who’s been traumatically harmed, which is a weird thing to say, because I don’t want to wish this on anyone, but when the  train wreck has already happened, I do want to be there to help rebuild the pieces.

Viktoria Altman: That makes sense. So when you say messy cases, do you mean that the case itself is complicated, that it was handled poorly, or what do you mean by that?

Joseph Gates: It’s more of, not like in a car wreck case when you know exactly what happened. It’s a clear liability thing. I have some of those, but usually people handle those kind of cases themselves. So there’s usually some kind of wrinkle in theremaybe it takes an expert trying to figure out what happened or it could be, there’s a delay in treatment or, something like needs a little bit more hands on approach.

Viktoria Altman: Okay, so I interviewed quite a few people here and the most successful folks always talk about having a niche. it sounds like your niche is complicated cases.

Joseph Gates: Yeah, yeah, yeah. This whole niche, I keep hearing of. I’ve narrowed the field of practicing law down to personal  injury. I’ve enjoyed working on products, liability cases.

 so those are other those complicated cases I was talking about maybe where somehow, a consumer product had failed that caused some catastrophic injuries, but usually in those types of things, they can occur all across the country. So there’s, I usually don’t have repeat type cases like that.

Part of the draw for me is I’m always learning something new. I’ve found myself working, sex abuse cases and those are very traumatic, emotionally, mentally, spiritually. but accountability is paramount. So I think, those are righteous causes. So I guess my niche would probably be, I like to say righteous causes is my niche.

Viktoria Altman: I like it. So that seems very well defined for you. But since this is a podcast about marketing, I’m about to throw a hard question at you. When you go out there and you try to market, how do you explain to potential clients, what your specialty is?

Joseph Gates: Sure. So I’ve spent, many years trying to figure this, the answer to that.

 the best I’ve come up with  today is I see it like there’s the customer, the customer may be the client, the customer may be the referring lawyer. how I approach a referring lawyer is going to be different than how I market to the general public and candidly, I don’t necessarily market to the general public.

My customer, if you will, is usually. someone in the legal field that knows what I do and we’ve developed a relationship and I can have, just one on one conversations about where my heart is and what I think about things and that has led to getting business.

Viktoria Altman: Got it. So you’re communicating with your customer in a different way than you’re communicating with your clients

Joseph Gates: potentially. Now, sometimes they align where, I’ve had clients refer friends, they thought I did a pretty good job. And so that, that there’s a general public aspect to that. But usually my primary customer is usually a referring lawyer.

Viktoria Altman: Okay, that’s an interesting distinction.

And not a lot of people make that distinction. So let me take this  question a bit further how do you market to your customers? And how do you market your clients? And what’s the difference?

Joseph Gates: If the referring lawyer is the customer, then I’m really involved in trial lawyer organizations, whether that’s the Arkansas trial lawyers, where I’m serving on the executive committee, it could be the, the American association for justice, where I serve as a board of governor and also teach at deposition colleges.

Um, it could be other national outfits that I’m a part of, and really, it’s just getting out in the community and, and this thing with people, I’m always game for talking about cases. whether it’s my own or listening and workshopping someone else’s so that that usually develops into a friendship, a relationship that has developed into, getting cases.

Viktoria Altman: Great. One tip that might be helpful for you from one of my last podcasts . I spoke with another lawyer who is very big on getting referrals. And she  told me that she does newsletters, but she doesn’t do them for potential clients. She does them for referral sources, which I thought was very clever.

Joseph Gates: Yeah. So, Everything is a these days, right? So I do have an email program that helps me make touches on a consistent basis to either folks who have referred me cases before or other folks I’ve met along the way, going to all these conventions and teaching and all these things.

So, yeah, I do try to be intentional on that. It doesn’t always work, but I did my best.

Viktoria Altman: Brilliant, talk to me about the program, because I’m sure there is a lot of folks out there who could use the help.

Joseph Gates: Yeah, the program’s called levitate. and we tried to plan out different campaigns of emails And so some of it’s very personal. like, always try to send someone a happy birthday email, or text message. and then others is just general stuff.

Viktoria Altman: Great. I just looked it up. It’s called levitate. ai. We will also link it in comments as well.

 that’s awesome. I love hearing little tidbits  like that. So you are marketing to your clients differently than you market to your customers and you maintain relationships with customers. Talk to me about how you market to your clients.

Joseph Gates: my wife does a pretty good job. She’s actually working with me now. So she actually does a pretty good job of oh, hey, you need some help. Joseph can help you. that that’s my best marketing tool right there.

Viktoria Altman: Got it. Are you also working on search engine optimization, Google ads, anything like

Joseph Gates: no,

that is something that we will discuss next year.

Viktoria Altman: But right now, not really. Got it. So with personal injury attorneys, you guys have a short sales cycle, right? somebody needs a car accident lawyer, they probably need one pretty much right away.

Joseph Gates: Yes.

Viktoria Altman: so the shorter your sales cycle, the less potential lead nurturing you can do.

The faster potentially you could convert somebody and the things that convert folks fastest are going to be ads and it’s going to be SEO. Now in the long run, SEO tends to be cheaper than ads. And I always use this  analogy that SEO is like building a house. And it takes investment and takes time.

And I always tell everybody, don’t start SEO unless you have six months worth of SEO money. Ads are a little bit faster. We’re talking about a couple of months, but the ad leads aren’t going to be as good in general as SEO. First of all, they’re more expensive. And also what I found from my personal experience is that the folks who convert with ads tend to be, um, Lower impulse control than the folks convert with SEO,

Joseph Gates: Right.

And so this is where, at least for me and my firm, it’s been beneficial of I’ve been blessed by someone else. Usually there’s usually like a 1 to 1 relationship, right? It’s either. A past client giving, Hey, Joseph’s great or referring lawyer like, Hey, work with this guy and it’ll be okay. So yeah, it’s rare for me to deal with the stranger out in public.

There’s usually a one to one, relationship there.

Viktoria Altman: So of course the very best, source of clients is going to  be, happy former clients or professionals whom the person trusts. certainly that’s going to be your best But, eventually those will get maxed out.

the other thing I could recommend is make sure you’re actually maxing them out. And the way to do that would be to make sure your website converts. So if somebody gets a referral and they get two lawyers, three lawyers, maybe even four lawyers, they will go to your website and they will check you out and they will check out the other guys,

When they do that, how much your website converts makes a big difference. Do you have the right components? Do you have the right sales techniques? Do you have the right, I almost said case studies. Do you have the right case results, or calls to action? So that’s another way of maximizing, your marketing budget.

And that generally should be done together with SEO, because when you design a website, you are designing a website Not just for pretty and not just for conversions, but also for Google. So if you just design a website to be pretty, it’s going to be very hard for  someone like myself later to make it convert on Google.

 So we talked a little bit about your ideal client and it sounds. me like you’re a very empathetic person who really gets into these folks, trouble and tries to help them as much as they can. Now, I understand you have a background in psychology.

can you talk to me a little bit about how you bring that to the job?

Joseph Gates: Oh, yeah, I’m a great armchair psychologist. it helps me with, having that background of trying to find why, why did this action happen? Or why is my client responding like this? And so I really do take, the empathetic approach of taking myself out of it and put myself in either my client’s position or even the defendant when the time comes of trying to figure out why something happened because I think we’re hardwired that way. I think God created us to want to know why. And even though sometimes that’s so elusive and I spent a lot of time trying to figure out why.

Viktoria Altman: Okay, so with your background in  psychology, Is there anything you do, to encourage your clients?

Joseph Gates: I try to be completely candid, as far as.

Time how long something will take. I think it’s the number 1 question that potential clients want to know. And I generally don’t sugarcoat it. And I tried to be upfront and honest that however long you think it’s going to take double or triple that if you want to really, get the maximum results. And I also talked to clients about, ultimately what you want.

I mean, at the end of the day, The personal injury law. All I can do is, money damages compensation, but I firmly believe that litigation and, going through, bringing cases to the public has a public safety aspect. And I would say most, if not all of my clients have a dual approach.

Like, yes, I want to be compensated for what happened to me or what happened to my family. But more importantly. I want whatever  happened to me not to happen to anyone else. And the only way to really bring that to the forefront is transparency and sunshine. And so that’s where the public litigation forum comes in.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah. So being true to yourself, that’s something that really runs through all of my podcasts. The most successful lawyers will always talk about how. Best branding is just being true to who they are as a person and their values And I’m a big believer in under promise and over deliver.

That’s how you get a person to trust you and then recommend you other clients. so you talked a little bit about some of the most successful marketing strategies. Now I want to get into the really fun stuff. Tell me about the things that have failed for you. Because everybody’s got something that they’ve tried they put money in and it just did not work out.

Joseph Gates: Oh, man. like I said, I have. I don’t think I’ve done a great job of marketing to unknown people. So I, I think that is something that I, I need to take a risk on. I  just, I, I’m scared to do it. ’cause I, I, I don’t know, it’s just something about that I hate marketing in and of itself.

Like I hate Facebook. I, because I, I, it feels braggadocio, I guess. So I don’t know. I, and I’m sure this didn’t even answer your question, but I do think, I don’t do a great job of telling the world, what the firm can do for other people.

Viktoria Altman: I just did a presentation at the New York City Bar, on the things you should do before you spend any money on a digital marketing agency.

And, While your approach sounds cautious, you probably have a really good point. you want to be very careful. I am in an industry that happens to be completely unregulated. Anybody can say anything they want. it’s very hard to supervise us. I’ll actually, if you want to, I’ll actually send you my slideshow from the presentation.

And happy to discuss it with you because I put a bunch of red flags on there to look for when you’re looking at an agency.

Joseph Gates: Yeah, promise over  deliver. I love that.

Viktoria Altman: So some of the things that I would suggest when you are looking to hire, beware of contracts. The best people in my industry do not have contracts at all.

I don’t have a contract not to say I’m the best, but I’m one of the best.

Joseph Gates: Well, I think that’s a good point. this world is getting into the Netflix, Amazon subscription model. And I think that’s wise.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah, so we do ask for a subscription, but you can cancel at any time because I’m so confident that you will see the value and you will see how much we’re doing that you will have no reason for it.

But when you have a company that wants to lock you in, there’s probably a reason. So that’s going to be the biggest red flag.

Joseph Gates: they may need the cash flow or it really does come from, uh, Netflix first, like AT& T. We all hate AT& T and Comcast, right? Lock us in and inevitably, once you sign the contract, you’re going to be at the bottom of the list.

Viktoria Altman: Yes. Yes. Yes.  other red flags to look for. you want somebody who gives you realistic expectations. If somebody’s telling you, you’re going to start getting calls before, I usually say three to six months.

 beware, uh, while things could happen, you don’t want, again, you don’t want to over promise something. So be careful with that. Ask them to show you websites of attorneys who are spending the same amount as you, not just websites of attorneys, but those who are spending the same amount and see if you can dig up some old clients as well and talk to them and see why they’re no longer clients.

 so there’s a lot of like little red flags. I’ll send you the presentation, but you know, it’s, it’s rare for me to come across an attorney who hasn’t been burned by somebody in my industry. So this is actually one of the reasons why I started the podcast because I really am big believer in, what did you say, sunshine brings the truth out and, I have nothing to hide.

So I always like to discuss all of this stuff  because the better. Reputation of this industry, the better I’m personally going to do. So that’s how I look at it.

Joseph Gates: it does feel like the Wild West, though, with y’all. So it’s from my perspective,

Viktoria Altman: it’s so funny.

You said that because that is exactly what I say. It’s the Wild Wild West. Everybody’s armed. Everybody’s got a gun. And you don’t know who the good or the bad guy is. So you have to be careful because you can lose a lot of money. the presentation that I started, that I just did in New York City bar, I started with, I’m here to save you a million dollars.

And it sounds like an exaggeration, but I actually know people who’ve lost a million dollars doing this wrong. So, yeah.

Joseph Gates: Scary.

Viktoria Altman: So talk to me a little bit about these speaking engagements that you do. How do you get them? it sounds like a great way to market yourself, there’s probably a lot of folks out there who may be younger lawyers who maybe don’t have the same connections as you.

How do they get more speaking engagements?

Joseph Gates: So,  I can just speak on my journey. I started at the state local level, started with, Arkansas trial lawyers did a good job of having a CLE catered to and brought on by, the new lawyers network. So the younger attorney, network. So I started there.

Got some reps in doing that, then eventually work my way up, nationally. part of it was, being present and getting to know people who decide who gets to speak, was part of it. and I’m going to tell you like my first five presentations were like game changers.

 I had to get over the fear of. failure and it may work, it may not, but just getting reps was very important.

Viktoria Altman: So are you reaching out to these folks who are making the decisions, or are you just kind of trying to organically meet them?

Joseph Gates: Both, both. I feel like I’ve done a pretty good job if I get asked again. And so I’ve been blessed with being asked again at various presentations. Like, I gave  a, I taught at a deposition college in Maryland and I just got an email that they want to bring me back next year. to me, that’s like, oh, I must have a pretty good job if they want to bring me back.

other things is, I saw a call for a national group a couple of years ago. That they’re looking for younger speakers, and I just threw my name in the hat and I got called up, never even went to that organization before, but I got on stage because they were looking for younger attorneys and, I’ve been invited back several times after that.

Viktoria Altman: That’s amazing. So when you saw a call, where did you see that?

Joseph Gates: On the list serves. Yeah. On the Listservs. most if not all of these organizations have a listserv where people post things. And for this particular story, the chair at that time, just put out a list on the young lawyer section of the listserv.

. And I just responded to that. I had been wanting to get involved in that group anyway, so it worked out.

Viktoria Altman: Got it. So folks should look for listservs for lawyers and then apply to those and, you know, continue to apply.

Joseph Gates: I will say AHA, American Association for  Justice, is constantly looking for speakers all the time.

They have so many events and they definitely don’t want to just recycle the same old people, so there’s always a call you got to submit a topic and all of that, and I’m happy to facilitate in any way.

Viktoria Altman: Awesome. That’s great.

Well, maybe folks can send you a LinkedIn connection and take it from there. I appreciate that. can you tell me a little bit about a common misconception that you encounter in personal injury law?

Joseph Gates: Yeah, that were snakes in the grass. generally, until someone goes through it and have been harmed and see the system.

 Everyone just assumes either it’s plaintiff’s lawyers don’t work or it’s easy or it’s a quick payday. And it’s like, no, man, this is not that it’s a war. It’s a battle. Especially the stuff that I do. It’s David versus Goliath. I’m usually dealing with multi billion dollar companies or multi billion dollar insurance companies, prominent institutions that have a lot of control and power.

And it’s really hard for someone to  stand up for themselves and they need someone to go alongside them to be that voice when. They don’t quite know how to say it, but they want to say something. And, it’s honorable what we do. I think that’s the most common misconception is that somehow we’re less than or gross for going alongside people for standing up for themselves.

And I think it’s the most honorable thing, especially in context to speak on the sex abuse cases. I’ve been working. I think it’s the most honorable thing for someone to stand up against an institution that allowed them to be abused.

Viktoria Altman: You’re very passionate about this. the best lawyers are always really passionate about their causes and the success comes with the passion. That’s what I found.

Joseph Gates: Yeah. Or craziness, burnout, you know,

Viktoria Altman: a little bit of both. So it sounds like you’re a very passionate person. Do you have a client story that has really stuck with you?

 I had a  client who was involved in a traumatic case And I’m going to be real vague this mama lost her child in a bad event, come to find out that the thing that caused the bad event. Had happened to other people and the industry knew about this problem and the government tried to, there was already reports to the government to band this particular product.

Joseph Gates: but it didn’t happen in time to save her little boy. So she used her story to finally get I don’t know why it took this child dying to be the thing that caused it to go over the edge. it shouldn’t have taken this There was enough there already, but be that as it may. This was the final straw in this particular industry now it’s this type of conduct is regulated out.

So it took a plaintiff’s lawyer and I was just part of the team on that one. so I had a very, small role, but I just admired this mom and the rest of the team that  have brought this forward. And now that particular thing is regulated out and I’m very proud of that.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah, that’s a great story. And I do wish more businesses took responsibility for their faulty products.

 the best case I’ve ever read was Tylenol right in the 80s. I think they pulled a bunch of medication off the shelves because they knew that one of their products was faulty and they got so much praise for it and they’re still, doing great. Johnson and Johnson, but I don’t know why more people, more companies don’t do the right thing.

Joseph Gates: It’s so, profit driven, The irony is in the long run, it’s better off for them.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah, Johnson and Johnson did much better by doing the right thing. You would think they would think about that, but apparently not.

let’s talk about technology. You already gave our listeners a really great tip on an app to use for email reach out. Talk to me about other things. Sounds like you’re pretty AI savvy. What are you using? What’s working? What’s not working?

Joseph Gates: I definitely use  a case management system. I templated a lot of my word documents and it’s just as I have a small shop right now.

And I’m trying to find competitive advantages and time savers. I value data. I value tracking things. My idea if there’s any piece of data that can be used more than once, then it needs to be in a house in a database, because that’ll just save time.

And I’m not trying to reinvent the wheel I think I’ve been able through my case management system, been able to not have to hire a bunch of people to do comparable work.

Viktoria Altman: automation is huge right now. I’m working on automating a lot of things in my agency.

So what’s next for you? Where are you looking to grow?

Joseph Gates: I’m at that funny spot of I have too much for me, but I don’t feel like I have enough for someone else. but I probably do. build out staff and, whether that’s attorneys or staff members. I don’t know yet.

That’s what 2025 is for.

Viktoria Altman:  Got it.

Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Joseph. Do you have any last words of wisdom for our listeners?

Joseph Gates: if you’re thinking about going out on your own, really, examine your finances, make sure there’s not like a bunch of debt hanging over you personally so you can take risk.

And it is, very freeing. It’s very tough, but it’s totally worth it to be out there managing, your own time and your own passions.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah. I love it. I love running my own business as well. Thank you so much, Joseph.

Joseph Gates: Yeah. Thank you.