Adam Cohen on Scaling Ticket Crushers Through Reputation, Reviews, and Smart Marketing

Viktoria Altman: Welcome to the Law Firm Accelerator podcast. Today with us we have Adam Cohen. Adam is a traffic ticket and DUI attorney in California. Adam, welcome to the show.

Adam Cohen: Thank you for having me.

Viktoria Altman: I would love to learn more about you and your practice.

Adam Cohen: So I’ve been an attorney for a little over 15 years now, and I started Ticket Crushers in about 2015. And we decided to take on Northern California ’cause we saw that there was a need there. And since starting in 2015, we’ve expanded statewide and we’re a high volume traffic and criminal defense firm focusing primarily on the traffic side of criminal matters. I like to differentiate us from other high volume firms where we actually enjoy the practice of law. You’re not just getting someone to go in there and plea out your case. We’re up to date on all the law. We take cases to trial and we really wanna change the reputation of traffic lawyers as lawyers that actually practice law.

Viktoria Altman: I love it. I’ve gotten tickets and of course have hired traffic lawyers, and I’d have to say, it would be nice to have somebody who seemed more excited about the law in the courtroom.

Adam Cohen: I’m not really excited about the law, as I am about winning, and I really can’t stand injustice. I think that’s what took me down the path of criminal defense, especially where it’s not high stakes crimes. This is something that happens to everyone. If you get a speeding ticket, you’re not a criminal; you’re just a regular person who may have been in a hurry, you’re not paying attention, and you shouldn’t have the full force of the law on you for something as minor as going a couple miles over the speed limit.

Viktoria Altman: I love the whole fairness thing. Okay, so you said you started a large traffic ticket firm, but you actually were with a much larger firm, and then you left them. This is probably a dream move for many lawyers out there who dream of leaving their job and opening up their own practice and perhaps competing directly with their former employer.

Sounds like you had to navigate a lot of complexity there. Talk to me about what that took.

Adam Cohen: There was a lot of complexity there. My former employer thought they had a monopoly on traffic defense, and that anyone who worked for them wasn’t permitted to branch out on their own one day and explore bigger things. I talked to a good friend of mine, Brian Silver, and he basically said, just do it.

Everyone who does it succeeds, you’ll make it if you put the work in. And I found that’s true. If you stick with it, it’ll work out in the long run. And we’ve had ups and downs and, even threats from competitors and we’ve persevered. And to any lawyer listening that’s thinking of going out on your own, if you really have the guts for it, it’ll work out.

That’s all it takes.

Viktoria Altman: So how did you navigate that? You mentioned in our pre-pod call that not only do you have a good relationship with them, they refer cases to you all the time. How did you manage to navigate it to this extent?

Adam Cohen: So another lawyer that has mentored me, said that he had three rules. Don’t burn bridges, don’t draw lines in the sand, and always take the high road. And even though my former boss is a vindictive, jealous guy, he knows business is business. And when there’s an opportunity for both people to succeed or make money, it’s an opportunity.

You don’t have to hold a grudge. And we both realized we could help each other and there’s always room for a Burger King and a McDonald’s or a Costco and a BJs or a Target and a Walmart, whatever it is. There’s enough pie for everybody and a rising tide raises all ships. So we’ve managed to coexist and actually help each other.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah. It’s all about the bottom line in the end for rational people. So you mentioned the Burger King and McDonald’s. You mentioned to me on the pre-pod call that you want to be the Burger King to the other firm’s McDonald’s. Talk to me about what that means for you and how you plan on getting there.

Adam Cohen: You know, I thought about that and I don’t wanna be the Burger King. I wanna be the In and Out, or I want to be the Shake Shack, or I wanna be the, Steak and Shake. We don’t need to be the biggest, but we definitely wanna offer the highest quality. As long as you have that quality behind your product, you’re gonna carve out a niche for yourself. And you may not be catering to the entire mass of people getting tickets or whatever type of practice you’re engaged in, but there’s enough business for everybody. So if you stake a claim as the highest quality product and an affordable price, people are gonna gravitate towards you.

Viktoria Altman: How do you plan on getting there? What’s your five year plan? 10 year plan? You just went from being a lawyer, employed in a different law firm to building out this brand.

Adam Cohen: We came up with a catchy name Ticket Crushers, and I saw what competitors were doing and it was a lot of money in billboards and radio and pay per click. We were investing a lot in marketing on a monthly basis. And one day I looked and I said, listen, we’re not nearly as profitable as we can be.

Turn it all off and let’s see what happens. And shockingly enough, our revenue did not decrease. It actually stayed the same. It’s because of the quality and the product that we offer. So word of mouth, people coming back, a lot of repeat clients, we have people with 20, 30 tickets over the course of the last 10 years.

So that’s how we’ve done it.

Viktoria Altman: I find that a lot of folks in the legal industry don’t keep very good track of what marketing is paying off for them and what isn’t. Part of it is just the complexity of the current system, right? Because a client might see you on the billboard, they might see you on Facebook, they might Google you, they might AI search you, and they might do all those things before they make a decision. So it’s hard. Attribution is a huge problem for us now. We don’t know how to attribute anymore in this world of AI, but it’s interesting that you decided to turn it all off and It barely affected you, you say.

Adam Cohen: I was shocked too, and it was a scary moment. Sometimes you just gotta take a risk and see how it goes. And turning it all off really did work. And I thought about myself as a consumer. On Google for example, I never click the ads, I never click a sponsored result. ’cause I know it’s not an organic result.

It’s not because they’re experts in their field or because they have the best product, it’s just ’cause they’re paying for that ranking. So I was like, okay, let’s stand behind our product, turn off the marketing and see if people still come to us. And they do. You know, we have over 4.8 stars across, pretty much all review platforms and people recognize that.

Viktoria Altman: Right. Doing great quality work is probably the most important thing. So walk me through the evolution of your marketing. You’ve mentioned you turned everything off, but I know you haven’t. You have kind of dipped your toe back in. What’s working right now and what was working 10 years ago?

Adam Cohen: Right when we started, we invested a lot of money into radio ads. Mid five figures a month into just blasting us on radio. And I knew it was working, ’cause one day this, lady called and said, can you just stop? And I said, stop what? And she said, with the ads, I hear it every day, all day. Just stop. The message is getting across. And I think radio really helped us come out of the gate, and establish a presence even though we were still small. We had no clients and we’re blasting ESPN radio and all the sports talk radio platforms in San Francisco and surrounding areas. Once we tapered that off, we moved to a company that did some video marketing. It wasn’t highly targeted, it was just so we’d be front of mind as a traffic defense and DUI firm. They played it on like YouTube TV, Instagram, some socials. So my partner would go to court and they’d be like, hey, it’s the TV lawyer.But once we turned that off, we didn’t notice any decrease in sales.

So I don’t think that the marketing didn’t work per se, but like you said, it’s hard to attribute it to it ’cause are they calling us because they saw our ad six months ago and remembered. Or is it because our SEO is so good and they’re like, oh, I remember hearing about a traffic law firm. Let me type traffic lawyer in Google, and we come up on SEO. But as far as like paid for non SEO marketing, it has not worked for us like SEO and brand awareness has over time.

Viktoria Altman: When it comes to brand awareness, it’s become so much more important in the past year because AI is no longer ranking you by keywords. It’s looking at you as an entity, and your brand, your AVVO directories, where you publish articles, that’s all part of your brand. but the problem is, again, the attribution is very, very difficult, specifically because

human beings make complex decisions. They don’t make a decision if A and B, then C. Their decisions, especially with all of the information now, are complex and it’s hard to say what’s working and what’s not working. Some things we know for a fact work, right? If somebody calls you Google Ads, you can trace that call relatively simply.

If somebody visits your website you can trace that call. But with something like Billboard, it’s just hard to judge attribution. Speaking of Google Ads, you said they did nothing essentially for revenue. I speak to people on two sides of the fence there. Either they love Google Ads or they hate Google Ads.

Now, most people hate Google ads, and my theory is that most people hate Google Ads because they actually are not set up correctly. But I think you have a slightly different situation. Can you explain what happened with why Google Ads didn’t work for you?

Adam Cohen: So one of the main reasons it didn’t work is we were getting the calls, but the cost per click was so high. If our price point is $300 and it’s $200 per click, it’s not worth it. It’s gonna cost more than a hundred dollars to service a case. and the cost of acquisition starting at 200 is not worth it for our price point. It did work for DUIs,to an extent, but DUI Clients are interesting. if you get someone who’s a professional who has a first time DUI, yes, they’re gonna pay high dollar for their case, they want the best defense, which we provide, but then they look at the name of the firm Ticket Crushers, and it doesn’t sound like a serious law firm per se. So we’re stuck in this middle where we have a quality product with an affordable price so we’re not getting the type of DUI clientele we wanted, especially from the Google ads. And like a friend said, if you’re a sophisticated client, you’re gonna have friends who know lawyers and they’re gonna refer you someone.

And that’s the first place most people go for lawyers is word of mouth referral, which is why the ticket business side of our firm has become so successful.

Viktoria Altman: I have clients that do well with DUI, but I do think you’ve put something very important out there. Your branding is Ticket Crushers. It just doesn’t align with a serious DUI client and I think that’s a beautiful branding and you are leaning into it and you are choosing to go in the direction of tickets, which is your primary area of business, and you have tons of room for growth.

So you’ve really done well with 766 reviews, just on your main Google business profile, I think it was something like 1500 over all of them. Criminal lawyers specifically find it very hard to get reviews from clients because nobody wants to go and say, you know, I was involved in this.

How do you deal with that and what is your review process like? Reviews are very, very important for rankings.

Adam Cohen: People aren’t embarrassed about tickets. Most people who are arrested for a crime don’t come out and go, I didn’t do it. I don’t deserve this. They know the facts, they know the circumstances, and they’re looking for someone to help them out of a tough situation. Maybe an embarrassing situation, but nobody’s embarrassed by tickets. I’m the only lawyer who has a hundred percent innocent clients according to them. Everyone calls, I wasn’t going that fast. I was targeted. So they feel justified when they win a traffic ticket. Whereas in a criminal case, it feels like, okay, that’s behind me.

I don’t have to live through that moment again, that’s behind me. But with a traffic ticket, they feel justified in the win. They feel like a sense of accomplishment and it’s like a haha got a one up on the government, when you win a ticket case, it’s not like, haha, I got away with murder.

Nobody thinks like that I hope.

Viktoria Altman: That’s funny. Okay. Do you have a follow up process to get all these happy clients to leave a review or do you just ask them once? How does that work?

Adam Cohen: Right now what we’re doing is putting it in our results Email. And if it’s a really exceptional dismissal, like speeding over a hundred or something where, we won on a novel defense in trial, the lawyer will call, describe what happened, and ask for review on the phone as well as in the follow up email. But we could do a lot better with reviews. We could be a lot more annoying about getting them. but right now it’s just one time in the results Email.

Viktoria Altman: So you recently hired a chief operating officer, and you said on our pre podcast call that they really launched the firm. What changed?

How does that work?

Adam Cohen: Most lawyers are horrible business people and they don’t see the value in spending money to make money, and they don’t see the value in their time. So, for example, I go to court with 20 cases, or one of my lawyers goes to court with 20 cases and there’s five other lawyers there with one or two cases each. And we offer them, “Hey, hire our firm to cover your firm’s cases and you’ll have an extra three hours in your day for, a small amount.” And they don’t see the value in that. They think it’s them giving away their business. They much rather, you know, squeeze a hundred dollars than. free up three hours of their day to make $3,000 or whatever it is. So hiring a] COO is basically hiring someone to run your firm so you could focus on bringing in money. So you could focus on consultation, so you could focus on the high level decisions that need to be made. There’s no reason that you should be building out your own CRM unless you’re just getting started, which is what we did.

You know, I built out. Cleo, when we first started, and we tried many CRMs. But once we got to the level where I realized my time was more valuable than doing operations tasks, I put that trust in someone else. And, for a lot of our employees and our high level employees, we like to tie their salary to, recognizable KPIs to make sure that they’re held accountable for their role. Butit was a real game changing decision.

Viktoria Altman: I have worked with Chief Operating Officers in multiple law firms, and I can tell you that there are very few people who are as competent as the person you’ve hired, in AI, in SEO. I’ve been asked questions that would be relevant in 2000, 2006 I’ve been told things that are completely wrong and to do things completely wrong.

Specifically when it comes to hiring these folks, a lot of lawyers make mistakes on who they hire, right? And I can’t necessarily say this to a client, but how do you find a good person that really knows what they’re doing?

Adam Cohen: Well, lemme tell you about our history with COOs. In the pandemic I lived with my fiance, who’s my wife now. We have two kids. And she had to close her health practice ’cause of the pandemic and she goes, Hey, do you mind if I answer the phones at the law firm? And I was like, sure. And the law firm was basically the second bedroom in our apartment. And, she said, okay, let me see the employee handbook. And I was like, the what? She goes, can I have the login for the Instagram? I’m like, nobody logs into that. She’s like, okay, you’re gonna need some help. And she went from answering phones to being the COO for the firm and she had some operations experience in other fields. But it’s really finding someone who understands your vision and can put it into play. It’s not just finding a good COO on paper. You know, once she decidedto stop working with the firm, we just had a baby, she’s focusing on that right now, and I needed to find a replacement that was as competent and growth minded as her. I really lucked into it. I found Phil online. And it was just to do a small project on our CRM. And I didn’t even do research on ’em. I was just like, listen, I need you to update these things, update these workflows, can you do that? Sure. Here’s my fee. Great. It’s reasonable. Then I did a little investigating and he had a whole side hustle of building out law firms.

Viktoria Altman: So we talked about it. He did a proposal. and so far, so good. Yeah, as an SEO, if anybody is interested in my advice, it’s very important that a COO comes in with this idea that there may not be an expert in everything, but they’re willing to learn Because for instance, my business is changing so quickly. I’ve had folks ask me things that I know for a fact not to be relevant, but I can’t necessarily tell the client, you know, this guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

So if you come in and saying, listen, I don’t know everything I’m here to learn, that’s a very different approach and I think they will have much more success, than somebody who thinks they know how to do different work, that, maybe is better done by specialists.

So your current COO is deeply AI driven. What is the first AI tool you rolled out that’s actually moved the needles and what are you working on?

Adam Cohen: So the first AI tool, actually did come from Phil. We haven’t started the agent answering and replies yet. We’re working on the tone, the scripts, the cadence of calls, things like that. But it’s a product called Fixer. And I am a disorganized mess when it comes to my email. I noticed that Phil was using this fixer tool with his email and I downloaded it and signed up and it’s really interesting ’cause it auto generates replies to all your emails in your tone. It reviews all your outgoing mail to see what you sound like. if someone recommends, a meeting date, it’ll actually pull from your calendar, generate the response, no, I’m not available on that day.

Here’s my calendar link to pick a new day. So, fixer has been our first real tool and I liked it so much. I signed up, all the management and executives at the firm to use it. But like you mentioned, going forward, we are gonna have AI agents answering the phone. We’re gonna have AI agents texting, doing review requests depending on the outcome of cases. it was really scary at first to think of it, but everything’s headed in that direction, so I feel like it’s better to be an early adapter than late to the game.

Viktoria Altman: Especially with, lower price service, you can’t necessarily afford to have. people answering the phones when the people could be in court instead representing the clients and doing the work that a machine can’t do. You can dedicate more resources to the stuff that matters and move the agents to the stuff that they can do.

So you are doing 10,000 Northern California tickets a year, is that correct? That’s a lot.

Adam Cohen: Let me do the math. We’re doing 10,000 statewide, but at least 80% are Northern California,

Viktoria Altman: Got it. So you are dominant in Northern California. How did you crack that market? Was there no competition there or what did you do?

Adam Cohen: Yeah, there was competition, but lawyers seem to be the last to adopt different things, the last to adopt certain types of marketing, the last to adopt new CRMs. We still see traffic lawyers going to court with paper files and it’s like, what do you carry in your folder?

A copy of the traffic ticket. Like, I don’t get it. In any event, they seem like the last to adopt these things. I am licensed in Florida. I’m licensed in California, I saw that Los Angeles already had a, a major presence. Florida is completely saturated, but no one was doing it in Northern California. And I was like, okay, working so well in Southern California. I’ll start it in Northern California and work my way down the state until I could compete in, in the south too.

Viktoria Altman: Sometimes the best business decision is just to open up in a niche where other people aren’t and makes things so much easier for you. With market research one tool that I found really useful is I have an ads guy and he can go in and he can see where the population is. higher than usual, and the specific ads, costs are lower than usual. It means not as many people advertise. It means there’s not as much, competition there. And that might be a good market to research. So he does this for me as an agency, right? So we know there are certain cities where there are very few agencies.

This could also work really well just doing, ’cause Google has a ton of this data, but they’re not big on sharing data, but they will share ads information with you because they’re hoping you’ll buy ads. So it’s sort of a tricky way to figure out where your next expansion should be.

Adam Cohen: Google has the worst marketing on earth. Like I’ve found some Google products and I’m like, this is amazing. Google Scholar is amazing. This AI product they have not Gemini a smaller one where you could plug in all the things you want and create an ecosystem for your own project that you’re doing.

Viktoria Altman: Notebook LLM is wonderful. I actually use it to write my book every year. I rewrite my book every single year, and so I take all the research from all of my competitors, all of my talks, all the things I include, when I speak at conferences and put it in Notebook LLM, and then they have it as a reference on all the latest information every time I rewrite my book.

So the thing with Google is they’re a monopoly essentially, right? They’re not gonna be like to be called that, but they’re essentially a monopoly. They don’t have to have good marketing because what are you gonna do? Not use Google.

Adam Cohen: Right. But market their products. I have a small practice going on in Florida right now, and we use Google Voice. It’s great. You know, it, seems like they have all these tools that they don’t push. They only push the ads.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah. they do. But remember the ads is what makes the most money for them as well. So you’ve hired and fired a lot of marketing vendors over the years. What are the red flags.

Adam Cohen: Over promise and under deliver has been the main one. I’m not really a micromanager, so when I hire someone, I expect ’em to do the job they’re hired for without me having to be on top of them all the time. So that’s been a big one too, where things haven’t gotten done because I haven’t been monitoring them as closely as I should, but I feel like I shouldn’t have to monitor them if they’ve been paid for a service. The drop off in quality over time is a big one too, where you have a sales team selling you their product then the people implementing what the sales team promised is completely separated from the sales team, and they have no idea what the sales guy said.

Viktoria Altman: You know, it’s funny, obviously I’m not trying to sell you anything, I truly don’t understand why people in this industry put so much money towards sales and so little towards keeping the client, because a sale is so much more expensive than just keeping the client you already have,

Adam Cohen: Right.

Viktoria Altman: in my estimation, it’s so much easier to just really, really make your client happy. But it’s a lot of work and my industry is completely unregulated. Marketing agencies have no regulation. Nobody really understands what we do. It’s sort of almost like a black box.

Besides your COO, what is your best marketing venture you think you’ve ever had? Anything unusual you’ve done that’s really worked for you?

Adam Cohen: So the radio ads initially really helped to get the word out. you go to court and you see a hundred people there, they don’t realize they could hire an attorney. So that initial blast of, this is an option for you if you get a ticket, was huge for us. We’ve done different gorilla marketing, projects. For example, we did lighters, branded lighters, ’cause you have the medical marijuana industry up in Northern California. It’s pretty big. So I went around to a bunch of dispensaries and passed out free lighters and I was like, Hey, listen, every time someone comes in, drop one of these in their bag. Great. Farmer’s markets are huge in Northern California, so we ordered thousands of reusable bags and passed ’em out to vendors at the farmer’s markets. So you’d go to the big farmer’s markets and you’d see 500 people walking around with Ticket Crushers farmer’s market bags.We found that for gorilla marketing purposes, branded materials need to be usable needs to be something someone’s actually gonna utilize. it’s a funny shirt, maybe they’ll wear it, you know?

Unless it’s a really high quality hat that looks really good, no one’s gonna wear your brand on their head. But everyone uses a lighter

They’re gonna get the bag from the vendor. So whenever we spend money on kitschy stuff like that, it’s gonna be usable multiple times and in a place where we’re front of mind when people see it.

Viktoria Altman: Interesting. So I know quite a few personal injury attorneys and they have big budgets, right? And for them it’s all about getting their name out there. And I don’t think I know anybody who does that kind of gorilla marketing. Branded products or sending a product to like a local venue of some kind.

I think you might be the first person I’ve ever spoken with and I speak to people all the time. It’s a really clever idea. I think lawyers don’t usually think about stuff like that.

Adam Cohen: No, lawyers are boring.

Viktoria Altman: I like that as advice don’t be boring, especially when you have a volume practice and getting your name out there really makes a difference. Speaking of hiring, a lot of my clients and, folks out there struggle with hiring other lawyers. you probably have to hire quite a few people.

What’s your secret?

Adam Cohen: There’s no secret. It’s the worst. When we have a lawyer leave, it really puts a strain on the firm, especially in Northern California because we need someone who’s experienced in criminal court, in traffic court. that means we’re limited to three types of lawyers: sole practitioner, government lawyer, they work for a criminal firm. Sole practitioners don’t want to give up their freedom in what they have. Government lawyers in Northern California make more money than even, private industry lawyers. Like I think the starting salary at the San Jose District Attorney’s office is like $160,000. You’re not gonna compete with that. I’m not gonna hire an entry level lawyer for 160,000. Criminal lawyers who work for other firms already, they are happy where they’re at. they’re not going to take a risk and jump unless it’s for more pay. So we really try to sell freedom that we give the lawyers. Like, listen, you’re gonna have these cases, if you schedule going to court one day a week, and all your cases are set one day a week, that’s great. You have four days to do whatever you want. Office work, go to the beach. I don’t care. As long as you’re doing your work. So that’s how we market for hiring lawyers, is that you really have freedom and control of your own schedule. You work from home. You only have to show up to court, and you have to be competent. Obviously. It’s not just show up. So that’s how we’ve been successful in that. I can tell you we’ve used a headhunter three times.

Viktoria Altman: Interesting.

Adam Cohen: They got us a crazy person and I came to find out that this person failed the bar six times and when he didn’t work out after a month and I tried to get our money back, I said, you didn’t even tell me he failed the bar six times. And they went, don’t you want someone who’s that persistent? I said, would you want him defending you in court? No. Good point. The next one was great while they were with our firm, but again, if you’re hiring someone from a headhunter, they’re just gonna go to whoever offers the most money. You’ve already established what their character is. So that’s why we’re not gonna do it again. Because even if you get an A plus candidate, if someone offers ’em more money, they’re gonna jump

’cause that’s what they’re after.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah, it’s definitely a struggle. especially if you need a lot of people. Where do you advertise if you don’t use headhunters?

Adam Cohen: So the traffic ticket defense ecosystem is very small. We don’t really advertise. We ask around. We mentioned to DAs, do you know anyone who didn’t get hired here who might be looking for a job? Any interns? We approach sole practitioners who are tired of the grind. You know, I mean, it really, it’s really not fun being a sole practitioner, traffic ticket attorney.

It’s really tough work. So we try to offer them an off ramp for that where they have a secure paycheck, benefits, 401k, the whole deal, and they could stop worrying about bringing in business and bring home pretty much whatever they’re already bringing home.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. What would you say to other people out there who are considering making the move you’ve had? I know it’s worked out really well for you, but hat would you have done differently? What kind of preparation do you think they might need?

Adam Cohen: Don’t be afraid to experiment. That’s a big one. You have to monitor what’s working and what’s not working, and don’t say no to cases. I could tell you like we have attorneys that we send cases to. They routinely say no, and it’s not, because, oh, I have something else I’m hoping comes through and really getting your name out there, being a presence in court. My friend Brian, we both started out around the same time and he always said, if I ever start failing, I’m gonna wear a button to court. A big one that says “I’m a lawyer. Ask me.”

Viktoria Altman: I like that. I appreciate you being here with me. I have a crazy book reading habit, so I ask everybody, what is your favorite nonfiction book and why?

Adam Cohen: Oh, nonfiction. What have I read recently? Well, my wife and I just watched a documentary on Mormons, and under the banner of Heaven is excellent.

Viktoria Altman: Yes, I do. I’m obsessed with call documentaries.

Adam Cohen: Oh, me too. But yes, I love called documentaries. They’re some of my favorite.

Viktoria Altman: Yes.

Adam Cohen: I’m reading right now How to Win Friends and Influence People, which is actually really good. Everyone should read this one, especially if you’re going out on your own Scott Adams, the creator of Dilbert, was a hero to me, he wrote a book called How to Fail At Almost Everything and Still Win Big. That book is a life-changing book.

Viktoria Altman: That’s the entrepreneur’s slogan. Because we really fail a lot more than we succeed.

Adam Cohen: It’s true and you can’t be afraid of failing and there’s always gonna be another idea.

Viktoria Altman: I love it. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom today. I appreciate it.

Adam Cohen: Sure. Alright, thanks for having me.