Faith, Family, and Law: An Uplifting Conversation with Attorney Bree Sullivan-Howell

Viktoria Altman: Hey guys. Welcome to the Law Firm Accelerator Podcast . Today with me, I have Bree Sullivan Howell, a family law attorney in Georgia. Bree, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Bree Sillivan-Howell: Oh, thanks for having me.

Viktoria Altman: Could you tell us a little bit about yourself and your practice?

Bree Sillivan-Howell: Yes, well, I’m Bree Sullivan- Howell, like you said, I practice in Thomasville, Georgia, but my practice extends beyond my little town. I find myself traveling all over South Georgia these days doing mainly family law cases. I do a little bit of personal injury as well,but I focus on the family laws, what I tend to enjoy the most.

I’ve been practicing over 20 years now, so long time.

Viktoria Altman: I read a little bit about your background and I love your story. Could you talk a little bit about, why you decided to go into the field of family law?

Bree Sillivan-Howell: Well, you know, I really just fell into it. I didn’t intend to be a family law attorney in law school.

I came out of school thinking I would focus on, civil litigation primarily, doing business cases, fraud and construction litigation, That’s where I began my practice in a larger firm in Macon, Georgia. I learned a lot about litigating enjoyed being in the courtroom and knew I wanted that to be the world I played in.

When I moved to my small town after I had my children I found that the only way to be in a courtroom was to practice family law. So that’s what I started doing and I’ve not looked back ever since.

Viktoria Altman: Why was that the only way to be in a courtroom?

Bree Sillivan-Howell: Well, just where we are, it is not a heavily litigious place, and the opportunities for litigating any issue are limited. The issues that do get litigated are not done here primarily. I feel like they probably go to the federal court or the bigger cities,

Viktoria Altman: So building your own law firm, comes with its own set of challenges. What were some of your biggest hurdles and how did you overcome them?

Bree Sillivan-Howell: I think in starting a firm you have to get your name in the public realm where people start recognizing you and tying you to a certain field of practice.

I think you’re better off if you can be, associated with one area of law. And so I think that’s the big challenge. When you just hang a shingle in a small town, it’s hard to be differentiated from the rest. In this day and time, I think it’s important to specialize.

When I started, I didn’t have a specialty. I just hung the shingle and started practicing Then I sort of fell into this family law specialty and built on it from the beginning, but it takes so much time. The hurdle is to get your name out and to have people associate you with that need that you service.

I think it took a little time for me to do that. I started in the time of the Yellow Pages. This was like 2007 We, started the brick and mortar practice and, the Yellow Pages online and in print was where you started. Social media had not taken off, so I did things like yellow page ads and local business exchange chamber meetings with other professionals.

I had speeches and invited people to lunch, just networked. that got my foot in the door.

Viktoria Altman: So that brings me to my next question. you started marketing yourself in one way, and then you transitioned with the digital age. How do you find that your marketing is different today?

And, Do you think marketing yourself in a small town is different than marketing yourself in the big city? And how?

Bree Sillivan-Howell: I think it probably has to be because in a small town, everyone knows your name, but in a larger place, like where you are, there are just so many people doing what you do, so you have to distinguish yourself somehow.

I think social media is probably more important there, although the messaging has changed as I’ve been in this space. My focus is more on being familiar with the public, trying to market in a way that’s letting ’em know who I am and what I do, and how I’m not a scary person to come and see.

That’s, I think what a lot of people deal with is that intimidation factor of coming to see an attorney and being afraid of sharing their life and their story. Especially in family law. It’s a very personal area, I try to use social media to make people feel comfortable. Before they even open the door.

Viktoria Altman: That’s a great use for social media, especially with somebody who has a longer sales cycle. like people going to take a while to make the decision. So getting them to feel comfortable with you is a very smart strategy. Is there any specific social media that you use?

Bree Sillivan-Howell: I’ve got a little bit of everything.

I have a website of course, anda landing page for my book where you can read about the books and link to Amazon to purchase them. I use, Instagram and Facebook, and now I’ve just started TikTok. I wasn’t sure I wanted to, but I just did it,

it’s growing a little bit at a time. It’s not comfortable videos that they expect you to do. you gotta be on camera, you gotta sell yourself get people’s attention, get the views, but it just feels so awkward and forced sometimes.

 

I’m struggling with it still, but I’m trying my best.

Viktoria Altman: That’s interesting. I’ve heard quite a few lawyers tell me they don’t feel comfortable on camera. And TikTok specifically is challenging to a lot of people. What kind of content are you producing?

Bree Sillivan-Howell: I’m doing informational videos, just short ones.

I put it in bite size segments, I do little informational videos about the law. Just new developments in the law. We had some new things come out this year that people need to know about And it’s not controversial and it’s not tacky, I don’t wanna be out there inappropriately marketing cause we rules too. So you gotta be really careful how you do that.

I’ve seen some people market in a way that was… eye catching and got a lot of views shares and traffic online even went viral, but I felt like it was cringey and just crossed lines.

“I went into court and I beat the other lawyer, and then I had a glass of wine” you shouldn’t say those things, it makes you look less professional. I have a problem with some of that, I’m trying to keep it about the viewer.

Viktoria Altman: So with branding, what’s important to remember is that it’s not about us, right? as the brand, it’s more about our potential client. we could all get attention by being outrageous, we all went to high school. We all know how to do that.

But if you were to try to market yourself, or if I was to try to market myself in outrageous way, that might turn off our ideal client, right? If our ideal client is expecting us to deal with a complex divorce matter, chances are they’re not gonna be a appealed to, with, a crazy beach video, let’s say.

Right?

Bree Sillivan-Howell: You wanna keep the main thing, the main thing, and I don’t ever wanna cheapen my brand in that way.

Because you can get a lot of attention

 

If you market a certain way, I don’t want to be associated with some of those messages.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah. And not all attention is good attention.

From a viewpoint of marketing a professional organization, you want to stick to your brand, your core self. so that smoothly brings me to the next question.

Can you talk a little bit about who your ideal client is and why they’re your ideal client?

Bree Sillivan-Howell: It’s interesting with family law, it can be anybody. it doesn’t really have a, typecast. It is anyone with a family law need. I deal with a lot of young parents. co-parenting issues

But I also deal with older people getting divorced with high asset portfolio, dividing all of that, so it’s really a large demographic that I serve. The ideal person who walks through my door and my favorite person to work with is one who comes in somewhat prepared, and is willing to listen to what I tell ’em to do and do it without being confrontational or questioning it too much because they trust your judgment and your professional, approach to things And, a client fighting you every step of the way is just no fun and it’s not productive and it doesn’t yield good results.

So the teachable ones are the best ones.

Viktoria Altman: You know, it’s interesting ’cause I ask this question all the time, and you might be one of the first lawyers who’ve started with demographics because most lawyers I talk to assume that I’m asking about personality traits. But when we, as marketers talk about ideal clients, what we are talking about are what can we market to, right?

How old are they? Where do they live? What gender are they or what age are they? What their net worth is? What are they, are they buying a porsche ? Are they buying a Volkswagen? That kind of thing. And of course, from your point of view, your ideal client is who you want to deal with,

Bree Sillivan-Howell: right

Viktoria Altman: So the other thing that I think a lot of folks forget is that you can have multiple ideal client profiles, or your ideal client might simply be somebody who lives in a specific zip code and has a specific net worth. Or it could be, two or three types of ideal clients. It could be somebody who is high net worth, it could be somebody who is young and has, children, it could be multiple people.

especially if you’re in a smaller market, But it’s important to know that because then it’s so much easier to market to them. For instance, you mentioned TikTok.

I bet there’s not a whole lot of your older clients that hang out on TikTok, but if you have a lot of parents in the early thirties, maybe. I don’t know. I still haven’t gotten into TikTok.

Bree Sillivan-Howell: Yeah, it’s a whole different world and I’m not comfortable there yet. my daughters make videos on TikTok and that’s how I heard about it

I started realizing that people were advertising there If I’m making content for the other pages anyway, it’s easy just to put it there too and see what happens, you know? But it’s a different demographic. It’s a younger demographic. And tech savvy folks.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah.

Bree Sillivan-Howell: And plus your content has to be so good on TikTok because it is, it’s just next level.

People are using the green screens I mix it all up digitally and it’s challenging to learn all of that technology.

Viktoria Altman: So then my question for you is, if that’s not where your ideal client is, then why are you investing time into it?

Bree Sillivan-Howell: Well, first of all, it doesn’t take a lot of time because I’m already doing it..

I’m just doing my basic stuff, but I think it is important to have the younger crowd latch onto your name and your brand, and that’s where the younger crowd is spending some time now, I’m only in my late forties, so I’m gonna be doing this another 30 years probably.

We taught people now in high school, they’re gonna be, 30 years older and I’ll still be practicing, might as well.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah, I mean certainly if you’re not putting a lot of time and money into it from a marketing point of view. Once we determine the ideal client, unless we have an unlimited budget, very few of us do, we tend to go after very specific demographics and we know exactly where those demographics hang out, right? Facebook, SEO everybody checks websites and Google my business. if you are business to business, then you go on LinkedIn, 30 somethings are usually on Instagram and you have 20 somethings on TikTok.

And so from a marketing perspective, we generally pick the few places where they hang out because the problem with trying to do everything unless you have, the assets, you can just put them everywhere. marketing is not just about what you choose to do, it’s also about what you choose not to do, if that makes sense.

Bree Sillivan-Howell: Because you have to focus your energy somewhere.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah. Unless you have an unlimited budget like Nike,

Bree Sillivan-Howell: I have a really great helper. I have a social media company that helps me get my content drafted and I spend an hour a month editing it and making sure it’s in terms of my messaging, and then she does it for me. So it’s not that much more effort.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah. certainly if you don’t have to do it yourself, and you have somebody who can do it for you, that makes the math, make more sense because a lot of times social media too. It’s hard for an outside person to get the tone just right.

 

Bree Sillivan-Howell: It’s so true.

Viktoria Altman: Yeah. So with social media, a lot of times it’ll be a person working right next to you, like in the office, I speak to a lot of attorneys and when they’re struggling, I say, hire somebody out of college, have them work in your office, they will do a much better job with social media than most companies because they’re there with you and can see, how you interact with clients

that makes it much more authentic on social. But if you have somebody outside, then you get lucky because that’s, rare.

Bree Sillivan-Howell: So, you have a background in journalism and public relations. Are you using that to help develop marketing strategies for your law firm as well?

I think it parlays well into managing the marketing part. I know how to write my own press releases. I know how to use Canva. We didn’t have Canva in the 19 hundreds.

Viktoria Altman: I’m also from the 19 hundreds.

Bree Sillivan-Howell: From the 19 hundreds. We seem so old when we put it that way. I graduated college in 99, and so at that point, the software was not the same as what we have now, but I learned how to lay out an ad and lay out, on a slide for Instagram way back then.

So I’ve always kind of had a feel for that about how to do it. And, it has helped a lot. My first book came out in February and it started winning some awards. so I’ve been doing press releases to the newspaper. Anybody reads newspapers anymore, but I’m sending those.

Viktoria Altman: Those could also be valuable backlinks. So you know what a backlink is, right? Every time somebody links to your website, it’s a vote of confidence. And from Google’s perspective, it gives you a lot of, reputation points. So there is something called the EEAT algorithm, which stands for experience, expertise, authority, and Trustworthiness, EEAT.

And as a lawyer, you have to fulfill the algorithm in order for Google to rank you well. By publishing a book, and that’s, clearly sells very well. you are telling Amazon, I am an expert. you know about a topic well enough for people to be reading and buying a book, which is a big deal because not a lot of people have that.

So, you’re already creating branding for yourself with Google, which, while it can use artificial intelligence, it generally doesn’t because AI is pretty expensive. So what it does instead is it sees what kind of, marketing you have online, social media in terms of backlinks to your website, in terms of Amazon sales and things like that.

And that’s how it builds up your profile.

Bree Sillivan-Howell: I never knew that.

Viktoria Altman: Tell me about your book.

Bree Sillivan-Howell: Well, I wrote it, over the last couple of years. It took a good long while because I was practicing law the whole time and just found the time on weekends or on airplanes or wherever I might have had a moment to work on it.

Viktoria Altman: And what’s your book called?

Bree Sillivan-Howell: It’s called Crush Your Divorce and Keep Your Faith, it’s a faith-based book, it’s got a lot of scripture in it, a lot of insights from my faith journey through divorce. It’s also from the perspective of, a divorce lawyer, which I am.

So it’s got three sections. The first is basically how to attack the emotions you’re going through when you’re entering a divorce. Cope with that such that you can get your mind focused on the legal part, the business transaction you’re trying to accomplish. The second section is all about different forms of post-separation abuse that people deal with commonly, and it’ll make ’em feel like they’re crazy, so I wanted to address it and let them know they’re not crazy and that it happens to a lot of people and here’s what you do about it. The third section is logistics. How to help your lawyer present a compelling case. And there’s nothing like it that I’ve ever seen, addressing all of those components in one place.

And I think it’s really helping people. It started as a guide for my clients. It was gonna be 30 pages. It was just quick little to-do list and things to think about. And then as I dove into it, having gone through my own divorce just a couple years before that, I just thought there’s so much to say to these people and I can connect on a heart level that will make a difference in their daily life and how they cope with this and get through it successfully and give ’em a little peace and comfort that they can do it.

And so it turned into 400 pages pretty quickly. It came out in February and people seem to like it It’s just been a real blessing to have people show up at the office having already read it for their first consultation. They walk in with their book and want me to sign it, and they already know what to do because I’ve given some ideas of what to expect and what they need to be getting together

I’ve really enjoyed that journey and it is a lot of fun. it’s really been great.

Viktoria Altman: I can see how passionate you are about this. Your eyes lit up the moment I mentioned it The most successful law firm owners I speak with have something unique about them and they really lean into it,

So for you, it seems to be your spirituality and your journey and how that connects with your spiritual life. Putting that out there and being, vulnerable in that way is it’s a great way to just live, but it’s also a great way to promote yourself because the best kind of marketing is genuine, right, it comes from your heart, and people can’t help but fall in love, with whatever it is that you love so much. So how did you end up writing this book? Why did you decide to do it?

Was it a personal story?

Bree Sillivan-Howell: I never thought I’d be divorced and I found myself in a very difficult, contentious, painful, raw divorce in 2018 with three children. For the first time in my law practice and in my adult life, I had a feeling for myself of what my clients go through.

You have a level of empathy for your clients no matter what, because you’re empathetic But until you felt the things they’re feeling, you can’t really identify the same way. When I went through it, I lost my logic when it was my case. I couldn’t think objectively about it.

And recognized how important it was for me to have my lawyer help me and her paralegals, and I would show up there and just cry sometimes. Just upset, like my clients do with me. It just gave me a new perspective. when I got through it and things went well, and things were great afterward and I became happy life started over in a fresh new way, that was exciting and wonderful. I felt that was a message worth sharing with people in despair. They come in here and they’re so sad that first day they are miserable and they are scared and anxious and I do my best just to encourage and love and let them know it’s gonna be okay.

And the book is just a way for me to reach more people with that message. It’s going to the uk. I get messages from Washington State. it’s just really been fun I’m just making friends and that’s what life’s about.

Viktoria Altman: I love it. So you took something that was not necessarily the easiest journey and turned it into something to help others.

That sounds great, I have to read this now.

Bree Sillivan-Howell: The message of the book is universal and it’s for any person going through anything hard really. And that is God can bring beauty from ashes.

 

He will meet you in your low places.

Here’s some wisdom about how to maintain your, behavior and things for it to go well in court. But in general, people need that wisdom about how to behave sometimes.

 

They’re stressed out and not managing things right. I just hope it helps a lot of people.

Viktoria Altman: I heard a lawyer say once, that he tries to tell his clients it’s not the end of their life, it’s just the beginning.

 

Bree Sillivan-Howell: That’s my story, honey. That’s exactly what I dealt with, I got a whole new start. And it can be, I say this in the book, your breaking point can be your turning point. Your life can be in shambles just shattered. And then the next day you see this whole new world open up for you.

And that’s a common experience my clients have too. I mean, it’s not just me. that’s possible for ’em.

Viktoria Altman: Right. People do need to be reminded that it’s not the end, that it’s the beginning. And, that can help, prevent a lot of negative things from happening in the future. So this is a very cool journey.

Thank you for sharing some of that with me. So let’s get back to the money making operation here, the marketing. Tell me about, and I like to ask all of my interviewees, tell me about some marketing failures you’ve had. Because I always feel like everybody’s had their own journey and their own successes.

And there’s always something that you’ve done. You’re like, you know, I don’t know if that worked for me. And there’s probably other people listening, considering doing it right now. So what would you say really didn’t make sense for you?

Bree Sillivan-Howell: I think the biggest failure, and I’m guilty of this,

nothing resonates with the public if you’re just talking about yourself and how great you are. Occasionally we’ll post like a review that a client posted just to let everybody know I’ve got some credibility and people like me, but I try really hard, when I’m looking at what the social media manager produces to call out anything that’s too braggadocious or too “look at me” because it’s not about me. Your audience cares about themselves, and that’s your big failure if you talk so much about yourself. It needs to be about them, their need, that you understand that need and how you’re gonna meet that need.

When we take that perspective and run with that in all of our marketing, we do much better.

Viktoria Altman: Can you give an example of what would be, a good marketing strategy for promoting their need versus your need?

Bree Sillivan-Howell: I think these videos are big. I do a lot of quotes. I’ve given my social media person my book, and so she’s pulling things out that I’ve already said that are encouraging.

Meeting the person where they are in their stress. If you can do quotes or take an event that’s happening in the world and give a take on that, that someone can relate to.

That’s been popular. I struggle with what things to pick to talk about, but I’m trying to do more of that.

Viktoria Altman: So instead of saying we’re a warm, compassionate law firm, you would give a quote that’s sort of an inspiring quote, that kind of thing?

Bree Sillivan-Howell: Yeah, I think so, talking about like: ” we are a great law firm.” All those adjectives that people like to use, in their marketing. You’re on your website usually, ’cause your website designer wants to put in some kind of descriptive …I just don’t think people read that. I don’t think they care.

Like, look at me. We are a great firm. We’ve been serving clients since… 2012 or whatever, you know, nobody cares about that. They care about you as a person. Like, can I relate to this person? Do I wanna give them my money to take care of my need? Do I trust them with my need. You gotta build the trust.

And that’s just a person to person connection, and we keep going back to this, but video makes a difference because we’re online. Our clients come here already knowing what we look like, how we sound, the kinds of things I say I think that’s a big deal. It takes down that barrier of uncertainty of what they’re walking into.

Viktoria Altman: So it’s interesting that you said nobody looks at that because we have software that tells us where people are looking in the website, right? And so, you know, it’s, it’s basically like, what it does is it anonymize the users.

You don’t know who is doing what. But you can see where people stop on a page, where people glance. the first thing people will do is look at the big text, anything bold, reviews on the page, the video, and then they will scroll past the text.

They will look at anything that’s in bold text and anything that’s in a different color, but you’re right on point there that they don’t generally read, but they will look at the highlights and your reviews if you have them embedded into your website, because that’s additional social proof.

If you were featured on a major news network and that’s included on your website, people will look at that and that becomes part of your authority, on the topic.

Bree Sillivan-Howell: I did get picked up by some major news outlets and I’ve got those authority logos on my website and that I use in social media marketing also.

Viktoria Altman: That’s very smart, especially if you have a book that sells well, so that’s a big deal for many different reasons. I appreciate you sharing all that with me.

That’s some really great stuff. I know there’s quite a few folks out there who want to write a book and very few who actually do it. Can you give us some tips on how to sit down and get it done?

Bree Sillivan-Howell: For years I’ve been keeping little notes in my mind of things I wanna share with the world.

I was in The Bahamas with my husband at our favorite place, and we were eating with the general counsel of Snapchat. It was so serendipitous that we’re all there together. They all started saying, you really ought to just write a book about your experiences and put it in one place, I started thinking and said, you know, Crush Your Divorce, that’ll be my new brand.

And so right there sitting at the table, he told me how to register a domain. So I did it from my phone. it just grew from there. I started making my outline on that trip, sitting by the water, just writing down random thoughts.

 

As time goes on, you organize those into an outline Evolve into the sections of the book that I have now. And as things would come to mind or I’d read something I wanted to quote or give a thought about, I would add that to my notes. I would just write it on the scrap of paper and throw it in my basket.

And then later I would lay it all out and put it in chapter sections, with post-it notes. I’ve got pictures of my progress on my Instagram page where I had it all on my kitchen counter, Lots of paper and little different scraps and different color pages and napkins, anything I had a thought written down on, I would email myself I do little voice notes, that I transcribe and use later. I got a book coach, which was the game changer. I found her because she had done a podcast on how to write a book. She was the only podcast I could find on how to write a book.

I just need something to quick to tell me how to do this. So, found her, contacted her, had a meeting, on Zoom andshe walked me through it and gave me deadlines, which was, very important for a legal professional trying to find the time to write a book.

If you have a deadline, you’ll do it, you know? And that’s what kept me on task. And she would edit those sections as I turned them in, and then I would edit her edits and then I’d have a chapter. And we just did it slowly that way. It took me two years, but I did get 400 pages, so it was worth doing.

Viktoria Altman: A book coach. That is the first time I’ve ever heard of a book coach and I’m gonna go Google it now.

You gotta go find one. That is great.

Bree Sillivan-Howell: Yes,it just kept me on task. It was really helpful to have a referee to tell me you’ve gotta do it this way.

She also is the one who really taught me, make it more about the reader and less about you. That was a guiding principle and I think that’s why the book has done so well. People wanna read about themselves. They wanna see themselves in your writing. That’s universal with any kind of writing

Would you mind sharing her name just in case I’ve been working on a book for six months, so it was supposed to be done like two weeks ago and that hasn’t happened.

Viktoria Altman: Maybe there’s other people interested.

Bree Sillivan-Howell: I’m glad to do that. I had two actually. I went from one to the next. The first part of the journey, I had Suzette Muller, and she was fantastic. But then I transitioned because Suzette had other commitments.

The one I ended up with was Michelle Copp, and I’m happy to share her Instagram.

Viktoria Altman: We’ll link that in comments.

 

So that’s a great tip. I appreciate you sharing that.

Bree Sillivan-Howell: And people tell you too, go get a ghost writer. Just give somebody your topic and let them write it. But that, it wouldn’t have been my words, I couldn’t imagine doing that and putting my name on it.

So I wrote every word myself from my heart and I think it resonates that way when you write like that.

Viktoria Altman: Well, my book is about digital marketing for small law firms and I’m breaking things down and there is like 12 people in the world who even understands stuff. So I don’t see how a ghost writer can write it like any more than they would write like a physics book, you know?

Bree Sillivan-Howell: ‘Cause it’s complex stuff, right? So I’m trying to explain it in verysimple way, because a lot of people don’t have this kind of background, Right, it is a nuanced topic, nobody knows this. If you haven’t read Divorce Law 20 years , you don’t know the little ins and outs.

Viktoria Altman: Let’s talk a little bit about family law in Georgia. Have you seen any recent developments?

Anything newsworthy happening?

Bree Sillivan-Howell: Well, we had a development this summer. Our child support guidelines were updated for the first time in many years, and so we a new draft or a new revision of that, became effective of July 1st. And we’ve been educating the public on the nuances of the new law.

Is important to a lot of people and the new revamping of the statute, impacts amounts you’re due to receive or pay.

Viktoria Altman: And is this only for people who are divorcing now or is this people who divorced earlier and have modifications

Bree Sillivan-Howell: The modifications are important.

It’s sometimes good to go back and revisit occasionally and see if your numbers have changed. Sometimes, depending on which side of it you’re on, it’s a good idea to leave it alone.

So we run the numbers ask us under the new guidelines, but they changed it this year where they want us to start including, an analysis of where the children spend their time, like number of days per year with each parent.

So that will affect the breakdown of,what everybody owes.

Viktoria Altman: Interesting. So let’s talk about your firm. How are you envisioning your future? Where are you looking to go? Are you looking to grow? Are you happy with where you are?

Bree Sillivan-Howell: I’m really happy, but I’ve gotta have a project going, like growth going on.

I invest in real estate. I wrote these books. I’m doing podcasts now. It’s really important to me to continue to grow and if I can grow my firm and get some young lawyers in here, I’d like to do that.

Be the right people. I don’t wanna get just anybody in that isn’t gonna fit with what I do.

So that’s the hard thing. I wanna be slow to make those decisions.

Viktoria Altman: You gotta make those hiring decisions very slowly.

Bree Sillivan-Howell: That’s what I think too.

Viktoria Altman: Well, thank you so much for coming on the show, Bree. I really appreciate it. Do you have any last words of wisdom for our listeners?

Bree Sillivan-Howell: Oh, well I don’t, I don’t really know what wisdom I have to share, but I’m really thankful to be here and appreciate the time. I appreciate your insights and things you’ve taught me today about marketing.

Viktoria Altman: My pleasure. Thank you.

Bree Sillivan-Howell: Thank you.